Official WHS Survey

[D-S]

Good point but I would add that everyone is catered for nicely. I think a lot of those who are shocked have a very different club set up. Maybe not enough juniors to make that junior section competitive and maybe the same for ladies.

Equality must surely be about fairness, not just about treating everyone exactly the same way. That would be unfair.

We have over 120 in our women’s section and over 100 iin our Junior section.

 

[D-S]

Not sure our ladies would be too keen on paying the entrance fee, or juniors for that matter.

But surely that is their choice not yours?

 

[Backache]

Why? Because adults can't cope with potentially being beaten by children?

And before you mention rapid improvement, increased opportunities to provide evidence of improving ability through competition minimises big leaps from one comp to the next, and new golfers in their 20s and 30s often improve far more quickly than any teenager.

Certainly at our club the difference would be that there are very few people new to golf coming in in their 20's and 30's each year whereas there are a lot of juniors making rapid improvement every year. The affect size on competitions would be very different.

 

[Dunesman]

We let juniors play in the adult competitions, with the limitation that ; they must have a full 20 cards history, none of which can be 9 hole, general play scores have to be when playing (without entry fee) with adult members in the adult weekly competition, they can be in the juniors-only competitions during the summer, and they cannot have an exceptional reduction in the most recent 10 cards. It works fine.

 

[clubchamp98]

If they are kept out by vanity caps then that’s fellow single figure guys cheating! Or is that WHS fault as well?

Yes it is.
It’s GP cards allowing them to do it.

 

[IanMac]

We let juniors play in the adult competitions, with the limitation that ; they must have a full 20 cards history, none of which can be 9 hole, general play scores have to be when playing (without entry fee) with adult members in the adult weekly competition, they can be in the juniors-only competitions during the summer, and they cannot have an exceptional reduction in the most recent 10 cards. It works fine.

I suspect the WHS has fixed any issues with handicap as the majority of our juniors can no longer play to their handicaps. Not sure how that happened but kids will be kids I guess.

The bigger issue is numbers for us, there has to be a cut off otherwise we have too many playing in the men's competition on Saturday.

 

[IanMac]

Certainly at our club the difference would be that there are very few people new to golf coming in in their 20's and 30's each year whereas there are a lot of juniors making rapid improvement every year. The affect size on competitions would be very different.

I don't want to play a match against an 11 year old off a 30 handicap and I suspect he doesn't want to play against me. Neither of us are getting anything out of that.

On the other hand a lad off a cat 2 handicap will make a game of it although, from my experience, they get too nervous. It's not right to push them too early. Cat 1 certainly, but you need to be a bit careful.

 

[clubchamp98]

Why? All juniors, perhaps not, but if they have an acceptable handicap off medal tees then I don't see any reason to bar them. My son was off 18 at 14, not exceptional, no boast there. He was playing comps with me on a Saturday, my handicap at the time was 20, more than his. Why should he be blocked from playing in the comps?

While I agree to some extent.

You can’t have juniors taking comp slots before full members if the tee sheet is full. ( usually is at ours.)


Juniors up to 16 are free. Then goes up with age.
Members £1400 .
So no way a junior should get a comp spot before a full member.

 

[clubchamp98]

I haven't done as good a score as that in 40 years.

But 47 years ago I shot level par playing off 8.
Never done as low a nett score since.

It was gross 68 four under.
Best of my life.

 

[IanMac]

While I agree to some extent.

You can’t have juniors taking comp slots before full members if the tee sheet is full. ( usually is at ours.)


Juniors up to 16 are free. Then goes up with age.
Members £1400 .
So no way a junior should get a comp spot before a full member.

I don't think anyone is wrong on this particular aspect of the discussion. It is a policy that is dependent on a number of factors specific to your club. No one is trying to be unfair to juniors, simply looking at the best way to manage their membership for fairness. Equality is fairness.

 

[The Fader]

As usual another thread drifts away from its topic. What does Junior participation have to do with WHS??

Some people just grab any stone they can to throw at the perceived glass houses of others.

There will be no concensus on this topic - the positions are too entrenched.

But as there has been drift I'll add my view on Juniors.

They should be encouraged to participate in competitions based on their ability not age.

It doesn't sit right with me that they need to achieve a certain level of handicap when older players with more limited skills
can play.

And the lower fees argument is not valid. Do clubs with staggered fees for "younger" adults exclude their participation until they pay the full fee?

Juniors are the future and any club that doesn't 100% embrace that is short sighted in my opinion.

 

[PaulMdj]

Very much not second class citizens. Well looked after as anyone who has come through our junior section would agree. I don't think our club is alone in having stages for juniors. You can join at the age of 10. Are we discriminating against younger ones?

Quite frankly the idea of all juniors being able to play in all competitions is ridiculous.

You really need to give me one example why a Cat 1 Golfer under the age of 16 couldn’t play in a competition against adults?

Is it to protect the adults from being embarrassed?

Please remember we are not discussing Junior Sections, we are discussing Cat 1 Juniors.

 

[Dunesman]

The step change improver has always been an imperfection in handicap systems, and it is no different under WHS really.

On the positive, WHS could be said to respond faster and with less interference with competition results if its advocated policy of sumbitting cards for all golf is observed.
On the negative, that same policy opens it to abuse.
On the whole, I dont think there is much difference between the response of WhS and the old in their reactivity to the improver.

And, while handicap building and card manupulation vulnerability might be a charge against WHS, when it comes to juniors, I dont think I have ever met one who wants nothing other than to desperately get their handicap down. Padding a handicap is exclusively the world of the much more experienced and mature adult golfer in my observation.

 

[PaulMdj]

Yes it is.
It’s GP cards allowing them to do it.

So if I leave my car door umlocked and a scumbag steals it, it’s 100% my responsibility and the cheating scumbag should be excused!

WHS does not force people to use GP cards or enter comps, that is down to the integrity of the individual.

 

[IanMac]

You really need to give me one example why a Cat 1 Golfer under the age of 16 couldn’t play in a competition against adults?

Is it to protect the adults from being embarrassed?

Please remember we are not discussing Junior Sections, we are discussing Cat 1 Juniors.

You aren't reading what I'm typing.

If you are cat 1 you can play in all but a handful of adult competitions. That applies to any age. Cat 2, at any age, can play in some and those competitions are also eligible to juniors over the age of 15.

 

[PaulMdj]

While I agree to some extent.

You can’t have juniors taking comp slots before full members if the tee sheet is full. ( usually is at ours.)


Juniors up to 16 are free. Then goes up with age.
Members £1400 .
So no way a junior should get a comp spot before a full member.

So another example of stuck in the mud discrimination!
They are either members or they aren’t.

 

[PaulMdj]

As usual another thread drifts away from its topic. What does Junior participation have to do with WHS??

Some people just grab any stone they can to throw at the perceived glass houses of others.

There will be no concensus on this topic - the positions are too entrenched.

But as there has been drift I'll add my view on Juniors.

They should be encouraged to participate in competitions based on their ability not age.

It doesn't sit right with me that they need to achieve a certain level of handicap when older players with more limited skills
can play.

And the lower fees argument is not valid. Do clubs with staggered fees for "younger" adults exclude their participation until they pay the full fee?

Juniors are the future and any club that doesn't 100% embrace that is short sighted in my opinion.

You are 100% correct, time for me to leave this thread and the outdated attitudes.

 

[clubchamp98]

So if I leave my car door umlocked and a scumbag steals it, it’s 100% my responsibility and the cheating scumbag should be excused!

WHS does not force people to use GP cards or enter comps, that is down to the integrity of the individual.

What are you talking about ?? Your insurance would say “ it’s your fault I think”

Do you think all low cappers are honest.
There is manipulation at this level just to get in high profile events then stopping genuine low men getting in.

It’s why EG will ballot out people with GP cards in their top 8 scores if oversubscribed in elite events.
It is individual cheating but WHS has made it so much easier for the “ scumbags “ to do it!

 

[Dunesman]

They are either members or they aren’t.

Then they aren't.

They are Junior Members. Not Members.

That is not inconsistent.

 

[clubchamp98]

So another example of stuck in the mud discrimination!
They are either members or they aren’t.

So members paying £1400 who can’t get a tee slot in the comps because it’s got a lot of juniors in it would start leaving.!
That’s good buisness.