Official WHS Survey

[clubchamp98]

They would, if they have also confused Course Rating with Slope
129 or 130 will be the Slope nit the Course Rating.

It still lost them a couple of shots.
They are not happy and are asking questions like.
“If plus’s cappers can’t score here how come it’s been rated lower by 9 points.”

The complicated system and secret algorithms is rapidly putting people off WHS that I have spoken to at my club.

 

[nickjdavis]

The UHS also required the committee to police it. But Supplementary Scores had only just been introduced so players hadn't yet seen the opportunity.

Supplementary scores have been around since at least 2008....plenty of time for players to seize the opportunity to "manage" their handicaps - long before WHS was even a twinkle in someones eye.

 

[SteveJay]

Supplementary scores have been around since at least 2008....plenty of time for players to seize the opportunity to "manage" their handicaps - long before WHS was even a twinkle in someones eye.

Yea, but only manipulated by 0.1 per round!!

 

[nickjdavis]

Yea, but only manipulated by 0.1 per round!!

Often 0.1 was all that was needed to get a whole shot back.

 

[Orikoru]

Often 0.1 was all that was needed to get a whole shot back.

I wouldn't say often. Logic suggests it was only one in ten times?

 

[nickjdavis]

I wouldn't say often. Logic suggests it was only one in ten times?

Of course...but the amount of times you would hear a player stood on the first tee saying..."miss buffer zone today and I go up 0.1 and get a whole shot back".

And if there are 100 people playing in a comp, then reversing your logic tells me that on average 10 players would potentially "benefit" from the 0.1 increase in this manner.

 

[chrisd]

Supplementary scores have been around since at least 2008....plenty of time for players to seize the opportunity to "manage" their handicaps - long before WHS was even a twinkle in someones eye.

Of course...but the amount of times you would hear a player stood on the first tee saying..."miss buffer zone today and I go up 0.1 and get a whole shot back".

And if there are 100 people playing in a comp, then reversing your logic tells me that on average 10 players would potentially "benefit" from the 0.1 increase in this manner.

Supplementary cards wern't being used anywhere nearly as much back in 2008 and were usually monitored by the club pro, initially, by having to book into him prior to teeing off, and by the secretary once handed in. It would stop members from putting in, say, 20 cards over a short period to go up, or down, whichever way someone may want to manipulate their handicap.

Also, if 100 people were teeing off, and 10 were on a .9 then they still only gained a shot increase. Now, if a score coming out is the lowest of the counting scores (say that it was a competition winner) and all the rest are high then the player will likely see quite a hike in their handicap come the next day so in my opinion the system doesn't reflect a players current ability as we were told it was supposed to do.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

SSS pre-dated the USGA CR system and was very similar but not as detailed. The main difference being that it was only a rating based on the scratch player whose primary strength is length. There was no concept of bogey rating and Slope.
Many years ago CONGU (with exception of the EGU (ie England MEN)) switched to the USGA rating and used the rounded CR as the SSS.
Just prior to and anticipation of WHS (and under pressure by England women who had merged with the EGU to form England Golf), EG adopted the USGA rating system

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Whilst I dont appreciate his comment I do believe that as we play golf in all sorts of conditions we need our h/cap to reflect that. I remember in the old system low single figure guys , in bad weather, wouldn't risk getting 0.1 back by entering the Comp.
Also how in their Scratch events many who were out of it would NR causing it to go reductions only....... nowt wrong with that Eh?? Yeah that perfect system we used to have.... hahaha

If they were out of it NRing made no difference, CSS was entirely based on whether a score was within or outwith the buffer zone, a card one over the buffer was counted the same as an NR

 

[nickjdavis]

Supplementary cards wern't being used anywhere nearly as much back in 2008 and were usually monitored by the club pro, initially, by having to book into him prior to teeing off, and by the secretary once handed in. It would stop members from putting in, say, 20 cards over a short period to go up, or down, whichever way someone may want to manipulate their handicap.

Also, if 100 people were teeing off, and 10 were on a .9 then they still only gained a shot increase. Now, if a score coming out is the lowest of the counting scores (say that it was a competition winner) and all the rest are high then the player will likely see quite a hike in their handicap come the next day so in my opinion the system doesn't reflect a players current ability as we were told it was supposed to do.

They were quite popular at my club. We had regular groups of players who would put in a supplementary every week.

My original point has been lost....Rulefan implied that players hadnt cottoned on to the possibility of using supplementary cards as they were only a "recent thing"....I'm merely pointing out that supplementaries were available (and well used) some 12 years before WHS was introduced.

 

[Orikoru]

I never once put a supplementary card in. I didn't see a need for them, I was happy for my handicap to be entirely based on competition scores. I always thought (perhaps wrongly) that supplementaries were just for those who didn't play many competitions, or hadn't played any for a while.

Now that it's so easy to put a card in through the app I would be surprised if there aren't VASTLY more general play rounds going in than there were supplementary cards in the old days. It's just so much easier.

 

[chrisd]

They were quite popular at my club. We had regular groups of players who would put in a supplementary every week.

My original point has been lost....Rulefan implied that players hadnt cottoned on to the possibility of using supplementary cards as they were only a "recent thing"....I'm merely pointing out that supplementaries were available (and well used) some 12 years before WHS was introduced.

When I was on the golf committee it was very rare to see a supplementary card. We played competitions almost every weekend from April to September as well as mid week monthly Stableford and medal comps. Most supplementary cards were submitted by new members to gain a handicap.

I think Rulefan is right in many ways as I now play with some people who put in supplementary cards as it's easily done on the phone.

 

[clubchamp98]

Supplementary scores have been around since at least 2008....plenty of time for players to seize the opportunity to "manage" their handicaps - long before WHS was even a twinkle in someones eye.

Think the app was the game changer!

 

[Imurg]

At a certain previous club, as a midweek member, we had a grand total of 6 competitions available to us....a Stapleford on the 2nd Wednesday April to September...
That was it...so if you were unavailable that number obviously decreased
Supplementary cards were....wait for it.....charged at a quid a time to cover administration and could take up to a month to appear on your record as they had to go Committee to be ratified and if you put your card in a day after the meeting it sat for a month until the next....
We were, just about, the only members putting Supplementary cards in...although according to the hierarchy of the club 5 day members weren't "real" members anyway..

 

[rulefan]

When I was on the golf committee it was very rare to see a supplementary card. We played competitions almost every weekend from April to September as well as mid week monthly Stableford and medal comps. Most supplementary cards were submitted by new members to gain a handicap.

I think Rulefan is right in many ways as I now play with some people who put in supplementary cards as it's easily done on the phone.

I ran our H&C committee for over 10 years and I still sit on it and I share your experience. Fortunately our current chair has the time (and will) to monitor the volume of GP cards being submitted and look out for "wrong 'uns"

 

[clubchamp98]

How many supplementary cards did cat 1 players put in pre WHS ?

GP cards are now affecting the elite events with + cappers who can’t play to it and are just using them to enter elite events.
It’s effecting Elite golf so they have put a limit on them for entry.
It’s finally come to their attention as it’s affecting the big boys comps now.
It’s been affecting the handicap golfers in clubs for years but has been brushed off with several pathetic excuses.
Improving golfers being the main one.

It’s a poor system imo but can’t see it changing now!

 

[rulefan]

It’s been affecting the handicap golfers in clubs for years but has been brushed off with several pathetic excuses.

It’s a poor system imo but can’t see it changing now!

How would change WHS to overcome this?

 

[Golf is fun]

Having read through all this, and seen other posts about it, the thing that amuses me the most is everyone argues about who benefits the most from certain handicapping systems, but no one really considers that handicapping in general is a bit farcical.

If there were no prizes on offer, we could all just go out play our best, and the person that shot the lowest score is the winner. Instead we put money on the line and then have to have an artificial system to allegedly make things equal. How equal, and who is the most equal through these systems is clearly a contentious topic. There are few other sports where just playing a bit better than you usually do (or have recently done) but not having played better than your opponent(s) means you are considered the winner. Yes it means there is less randomisation in results, but that's just how it is, same as certain rugby, football, or whatever else clubs constantly top the league or prop it up.

 

[clubchamp98]

How would change WHS to overcome this?

Our golf culture is comp golf.
You got your handicap based on your comp scores in the past.
Maybe some clubs need more comps, playing over several days so people can play!

I would scrap GP cards simple as that ,then you play your competitions based on your competition scores not on a jolly round with your mates
That’s probably not popular with some but is with others.
GP cards has ruined comp golf for lots of people through stupid scores and lots at my club don’t enter comps anymore.
They let you know as well ,they voice their opinions every week in the clubhouse.

 

[clubchamp98]

Having read through all this, and seen other posts about it, the thing that amuses me the most is everyone argues about who benefits the most from certain handicapping systems, but no one really considers that handicapping in general is a bit farcical.

If there were no prizes on offer, we could all just go out play our best, and the person that shot the lowest score is the winner. Instead we put money on the line and then have to have an artificial system to allegedly make things equal. How equal, and who is the most equal through these systems is clearly a contentious topic. There are few other sports where just playing a bit better than you usually do (or have recently done) but not having played better than your opponent(s) means you are considered the winner. Yes it means there is less randomisation in results, but that's just how it is, same as certain rugby, football, or whatever else clubs constantly top the league or prop it up.

Yes I agree with this.

But imagine Man City going to Tranmere and beating them and wanting the result to count for the PL title.
That would be a GP card.