Official WHS Survey

[2blue]

No I didn;t miss the point, you did, NRing made no difference to CSS, it counted exactly the same as missing buffer by one, you were either in the buffer or not, and that's what calculation of CSS was done from

Yes 3 comps a year, compared to, erm, zero now, your handicap now never lapses, and some people think this is better? hahahaha

But now it's controlled with T's & C's that ensure you get nowt whereas before just having 3 comps/Supps a year & you could walk away with the prizes & you think that was better.. it was a mugs world.

 

[D-S]

But now it's controlled with T's & C's that ensure you get nowt whereas before just having 3 comps/Supps a year & you could walk away with the prizes & you think that was better.. it was a mugs world.

Surely clubs could have easily introduced conditions that they are doing now if they thought back then there was a problem?

 

[Banchory Buddha]

But now it's controlled with T's & C's that ensure you get nowt whereas before just having 3 comps/Supps a year & you could walk away with the prizes & you think that was better.. it was a mugs world.

There's nothing in WHS that works as you've described here.

Maybe your club applies such a T&C for your competitions, I'm not sure how your club over-riding WHS is a positive, surely that's yet another sign that it's a garbage system?

 

[2blue]

Surely clubs could have easily introduced conditions that they are doing now if they thought back then there was a problem?

With just 3 rounds in a year, that was it you were 'active' so it was a case 'suck it up' even though it was clear all sorts was going on. Hands were tied!!
Now you can draw down the info & exercise a measure of control.... I guess you haven't been in a position to see this ionm action?

There's nothing in WHS that works as you've described here.

Maybe your club applies such a T&C for your competitions, I'm not sure how your club over-riding WHS is a positive, surely that's yet another sign that it's a garbage system?

I can only think that your Club is not making use of T's & C's whereas many are, as well as Counties, Unions & Associations. Makes good sense.... & if you can't see it then.... Hey-ho away you go!!

 

[D-S]

With just 3 rounds in a year, that was it you were 'active' so it was a case 'suck it up' even though it was clear all sorts was going on. Hands were tied!!
Now you can draw down the info & exercise a measure of control.... I guess you haven't been in a position to see this ionm action?

Oddly enough I was Chairman of Handicap committee for 7 years under the UHS system. We were happy with active/inactive as there were very few supplementary scores ever entered (so manipulation via this route was not an issue) and those were entered by the committee and/or Pro so we’re very easy to check. Like every club we had issues to deal with but we never felt the need to ask players to ‘prove’ their ability beyond the three needed as these were almost invariably all from competition.
My current role means that I have a much broader view of the work of many clubs and I see the enormous amount of work put in by some to prevent manipulation and the best use of the tools provided. This also means that I see clubs with not so diligent , knowledgeable and competent committees.
So to answer your question, yes I have seen a lot of these things in action.

 

[2blue]

Oddly enough I was Chairman of Handicap committee for 7 years under the UHS system. We were happy with active/inactive as there were very few supplementary scores ever entered (so manipulation via this route was not an issue) and those were entered by the committee and/or Pro so we’re very easy to check. Like every club we had issues to deal with but we never felt the need to ask players to ‘prove’ their ability beyond the three needed as these were almost invariably all from competition.
My current role means that I have a much broader view of the work of many clubs and I see the enormous amount of work put in by some to prevent manipulation and the best use of the tools provided. This also means that I see clubs with not so diligent , knowledgeable and competent committees.
So to answer your question, yes I have seen a lot of these things in action.

In which case would you agree that WHS provides a much more level playing field when visiting other more difficult courses? No system is perfect but it seems this one has clearly exposed how many 'dodgy' golfers some Clubs have so H/cap committees need to address that problem.

 

[D-S]

In which case would you agree that WHS provides a much more level playing field when visiting other more difficult courses? No system is perfect but it seems this one has clearly exposed how many 'dodgy' golfers some Clubs have so H/cap committees need to address that problem.

I absolutely agree with your first point and i also agree that it has helped show that there are quite a few dodgy golfers around.
Regrettably the current system has given them a much easier route to manipulate their handicaps. This can be prevented by knowledgeable, diligent, hard working committees using the tools provided. Unfortunately the reliance on the committees is quite large and sadly the standard of committees is extremely variable, which in turn means that the curbs on the ‘dodgy’ golfers are themselves very inconsistent.

 

[TigerTime]

My biggest gripe is those who do not submit a lot of cards.

I played a guy in the handicap club championship last year, who had submitted 3 cards over the past 12 months. He was a clear bandit who should've been off single figures - I stood next to no chance off bare feet. He knew it as well.

IMO, for WHS to work, you need to submit regular cards. One per month should be a requirement to enter competitions whether local or not.

 

[2blue]

My biggest gripe is those who do not submit a lot of cards.

I played a guy in the handicap club championship last year, who had submitted 3 cards over the past 12 months. He was a clear bandit who should've been off single figures - I stood next to no chance off bare feet. He knew it as well.

IMO, for WHS to work, you need to submit regular cards. One per month should be a requirement to enter competitions whether local or not.

At my Club you needed 5 Competitions Q scores in the last 12 months or you weren't eligible.... really did sort out the laggards & caused a lot of squealing & squeaking from them trying to find ways around it, Despite what people say WHS is providing protection against such behaviours.

 

[Backache]

At my Club you needed 5 Competitions Q scores in the last 12 months or you weren't eligible.... really did sort out the laggards & caused a lot of squealing & squeaking from them trying to find ways around it, Despite what people say WHS is providing protection against such behaviours.

I'm not quite sure why it is WHS providing such protection as there is certainly no requirement under WHS to have any competition cards in any time period at all.

 

[2blue]

At my Club you needed 5 Competitions Q scores in the last 12 months or you weren't eligible.... really did sort out the laggards & caused a lot of squealing & squeaking from them trying to find ways around it, Despite what people say WHS is providing protection against such behaviours.

I'm not quite sure why it is WHS providing such protection as there is certainly no requirement under WHS to have any competition cards in any time period at all.

Each Club will decide what suits them.... WHS makes it really easy to check..... lets face it, no H/cap system is perfect nor can it be..... so dream on.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

With just 3 rounds in a year, that was it you were 'active' so it was a case 'suck it up' even though it was clear all sorts was going on. Hands were tied!!
Now you can draw down the info & exercise a measure of control.... I guess you haven't been in a position to see this ionm action?


I can only think that your Club is not making use of T's & C's whereas many are, as well as Counties, Unions & Associations. Makes good sense.... & if you can't see it then.... Hey-ho away you go!!

Are they? Name one that says you must put in 3 cards per year or more or whatever this mystical "T&Cs" are that you refer to? It's not a recommendation by Scottish golf, and as counties only run scratch events it's not an issue there. It is 100% not something contained within WHS, so please stop making stuff up

 

[Banchory Buddha]

At my Club you needed 5 Competitions Q scores in the last 12 months or you weren't eligible.... really did sort out the laggards & caused a lot of squealing & squeaking from them trying to find ways around it, Despite what people say WHS is providing protection against such behaviours.

It absolutely is not, they can now quite easily go out and bang out five crap scores and away they go, hey flinging ho

 

[wjemather]

Are they? Name one that says you must put in 3 cards per year or more or whatever this mystical "T&Cs" are that you refer to? It's not a recommendation by Scottish golf, and as counties only run scratch events it's not an issue there. It is 100% not something contained within WHS, so please stop making stuff up

I think you've misunderstood what was being said and when it comes to making stuff up...

Some county unions (e.g. Yorkshire, iirc) have certainly added conditions to some of their handicap competitions and meetings - yes, that's right, they do not only run scratch competitions.

 

[NearHull]

I think you've misunderstood what was being said and when it comes to making stuff up...

Some county unions (e.g. Yorkshire, iirc) have certainly added conditions to some of their handicap competitions and meetings - yes, that's right, they do not only run scratch competitions.

Yorkshire Union Members Meetings require 6 Competition scores in the preceding 12 months to win a prize.

 

[2blue]

Yorkshire Union Members Meetings require 6 Competition scores in the preceding 12 months to win a prize.

In order to win a prize with Leeds & District Union a player must have submitted a minimum of four fully completed clubcompetition 18-hole round scores acceptable for WHS purposes in the 12 months before the day of the competition.

 

[C7usk]

Although I do like the WHS more than the old system, I am sure they could make some tweaks to make it more palatable. I think the hard cap could be reduced to say 3 over a rolling 12 month period as opposed to 5 that I think it is..
The fluctuations, for high hcps especially, can be quite dramatic depending on what scores are dropping off.
I am curious as to how close people's hcps under the new system would be in comparison to the old..

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Yorkshire Union Members Meetings require 6 Competition scores in the preceding 12 months to win a prize.

Good to see that happening in England then, unfortunately in Scotland, the SG and more importantly those tasked with overseeing WHS implementation in Scotland are blatant cap-doffers, the man in charge even said there was nothing wrong with (the original) PCC and that it was working as intended (as an eg. of his cap doffing), despite howls from all quarters, us mere plebs couldn't possibly see what was happening on the ground, and know our playng conditions better than someone in California or the Carolinas, strange there's been two changes since eh? No thanks to our SG rep.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Although I do like the WHS more than the old system, I am sure they could make some tweaks to make it more palatable. I think the hard cap could be reduced to say 3 over a rolling 12 month period as opposed to 5 that I think it is..
The fluctuations, for high hcps especially, can be quite dramatic depending on what scores are dropping off.
I am curious as to how close people's hcps under the new system would be in comparison to the old..

Your reasons for this?

 

[Tashyboy]

Another 10 pages on WHS tells me all is not well with the system.