Official WHS Survey

[Banchory Buddha]

No such system is possible, but WHS is the closest we have ever had.

Oh come on, you're just trolling as usual. It's clearly highly flawed, to such an extent that before 4 years are up the R&A and USGA are actually sending out surveys to club members. That's not the sign of success

 

[rulefan]

Aren’t Golf Ireland, either directly or via CONGU, part of the originators?

I can’t believe the R&A and USGA didn’t consult closely with CONGU and its members before getting them to disband their system in favour of WHS.

They were and they did.
Of course Supplementary Scores predated WHS but the controls in force under CONGU were not followed through.
But the WHS has nothing to do with with the way GUR run their interclub competitions.
Perhaps GI don't trust their players or clubs.

 

[D-S]

But the WHS has nothing to do with with the way GUR run their interclub competitions.

I assume you mean GI not GUR.
Surely a member of CONGU would have to run their inter club nett competitions in line with WHS? The handicaps that they are not trusting and having to manipulate via a calculation not share yet and use of the Low Handicap Index rathe4 than the real ones, are all derived from WHS. They are a key stakeholder.

I confess that I am shocked that GI have been doing this for a year or so and now appear to be doubling down for next year.

This strikes me as a serious crack appearing in WHS.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

I assume you mean GI not GUR.
Surely a member of CONGU would have to run their inter club nett competitions in line with WHS? The handicaps that they are not trusting and having to manipulate via a calculation not share yet and use of the Low Handicap Index rathe4 than the real ones, are all derived from WHS. They are a key stakeholder.

I confess that I am shocked that GI have been doing this for a year or so and now appear to be doubling down for next year.

This strikes me as a serious crack appearing in WHS.

Yes, cracks. I've asked the question within my club as to why we don't run our internal competitions using lowest index in last 12 months. Of course the match and handicap chap is a rabbit in the headlights. No correct answer to that.

 

[nickjdavis]

It all boils down to the desire to be inclusive to all, and the thought that, allowing folks to submit cards as and when they want, will deliver the desired level of inclusivity and drive numbers into the game.

All they need to do is to put a cap on the number of general play rounds that can be submitted by an individual in any given time period.

One card a week should be fine and, along with the soft cap (maybe a strengthening of the soft cap....bring it in at 2 shots and the hard cap at 4) should ameliorate the efforts to drive handicaps up, by those who flood their record with GP cards.

Edit: also change from best 8/20 to best 6/20 will have a small effect on mid single figure indexes (maybe reducing them by 0.3-0.5) whilst dropping higher handicaps by a bit more (around 1 shot for a typical 28 handicapper) based on the potted analysis I've just done from layers at my club

 

[D-S]

It all boils down to the desire to be inclusive to all, and the thought that, allowing folks to submit cards as and when they want, will deliver the desired level of inclusivity and drive numbers into the game.

All they need to do is to put a cap on the number of general play rounds that can be submitted by an individual in any given time period.

One card a week should be fine and, along with the soft cap (maybe a strengthening of the soft cap....bring it in at 2 shots and the hard cap at 4) should ameliorate the efforts to drive handicaps up, by those who flood their record with GP cards.

I agree with a lot of this but I also find unlimited cards throughout the winter troubling.
If you rated most run of the mill courses for winter 5c, windy and wet fairways with no roll, they would come out considerably higher as they play significantly longer, together with uneven greens and muddy lies to chip off.
This means that those who choose to play and put cards in winter almost invariably go up, those who don’t, because they don’t play or are at a course where qualifiers aren’t played or playable in winter, stay the same.

 

[clubchamp98]

I think the fact we are all still debating this proves a lot of us really don’t think WHS is fit for purpose.

Might work ok in warmer climates but in the UK it’s not.

That’s before we get to the manipulation of the system.!

 

[Deleted member 36483]

I agree with a lot of this but I also find unlimited cards throughout the winter troubling.
If you rated most run of the mill courses for winter 5c, windy and wet fairways with no roll, they would come out considerably higher as they play significantly longer, together with uneven greens and muddy lies to chip off.
This means that those who choose to play and put cards in winter almost invariably go up, those who don’t, because they don’t play or are at a course where qualifiers aren’t played or playable in winter, stay the same.

On my course, and I think most courses in Ireland, our rounds don't qualify for 5 months of the year, Nov to Mar. There are winter leagues, turkey competitions etc and therefore a considerable amount of golf is played outside qualifying conditions. Some people play much more through these 5 months than they play in the normal season. We play a shorten course with the rough cut back. There is no significant reduction in slope and therefore the high handicappers have a field day, lots of turkeys and their handicaps remain largely untouched. It's a links course so we have no wet fairway problems.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

I think the fact we are all still debating this proves a lot of us really don’t think WHS is fit for purpose.

Might work ok in warmer climates but in the UK it’s not.

That’s before we get to the manipulation of the system.!

I assume that this is the motivation behind the recent survey. I just hope they pay attention to the results and get on with binning it. Ok, keep the idea of slope as that's just SSS by another name but average of best 8 from last 20 is an abomination. Go back to the old system for handicap index calculation please, please, please!!!!

 

[rulefan]

Ok, keep the idea of slope as that's just SSS by another name

I'm afraid you got that bit wrong. SSS is CR (and was for many years before in CONGU (except for the EGU who introduced the USGA rating a couple of years before WHS))

 

[nickjdavis]

I agree with a lot of this but I also find unlimited cards throughout the winter troubling.
If you rated most run of the mill courses for winter 5c, windy and wet fairways with no roll, they would come out considerably higher as they play significantly longer, together with uneven greens and muddy lies to chip off.
This means that those who choose to play and put cards in winter almost invariably go up, those who don’t, because they don’t play or are at a course where qualifiers aren’t played or playable in winter, stay the same.

There is some truth to this but there are swings and roundabouts, and one that I see often is winter courses with tees very far forward allowing qualifying scores on days that are (and we do get them in winter) quite pleasant and dry when good scoring can be achieved. We had a group of guys come in and play our course last winter and complained that the MyEG app wouldn't let them register a round for handicap purposes. We told them that we had switched the functionality off, because the course did not meet the standards for a qualifying round. They wern't happy and said that sort of thing didn't happen at other courses when the tees were forward.

This winter we should be able to get round the problem by having areas of artificial turf actually embedded within the tee box (rather than a mat on a concrete block or on a metal stand) which will allow us to maintain qualifying criteria, whilst giving the grass tees some much needed rest.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

I'm afraid you got that bit wrong. SSS is CR (and was for many years before in CONGU (except for the EGU who introduced the USGA rating a couple of years before WHS))

Yes, you are correct, CR. I meant that side of WHS in general was fine. I'm just opposed to the volatility of the HI calculation as it currently stands. Far too simplistic and easily abused.

 

[C7usk]

It all boils down to the desire to be inclusive to all, and the thought that, allowing folks to submit cards as and when they want, will deliver the desired level of inclusivity and drive numbers into the game.

All they need to do is to put a cap on the number of general play rounds that can be submitted by an individual in any given time period.

One card a week should be fine and, along with the soft cap (maybe a strengthening of the soft cap....bring it in at 2 shots and the hard cap at 4) should ameliorate the efforts to drive handicaps up, by those who flood their record with GP cards.

Edit: also change from best 8/20 to best 6/20 will have a small effect on mid single figure indexes (maybe reducing them by 0.3-0.5) whilst dropping higher handicaps by a bit more (around 1 shot for a typical 28 handicapper) based on the potted analysis I've just done from layers at my club

I like WHS but I think most of what you have put I am in agreement with.....

 

[Backache]

It’s far from the closet we ever had - if anything it’s far worse than the previous system which appear to give every one a chance

To be fair it gives everyone a decent chance to be creative about their handicap.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I agree with a lot of this but I also find unlimited cards throughout the winter troubling.
If you rated most run of the mill courses for winter 5c, windy and wet fairways with no roll, they would come out considerably higher as they play significantly longer, together with uneven greens and muddy lies to chip off.
This means that those who choose to play and put cards in winter almost invariably go up, those who don’t, because they don’t play or are at a course where qualifiers aren’t played or playable in winter, stay the same.

Had this argument with a SG official when WHS launched, said there had to be a winter period, he was having none of it, devoid of thought and a slavish followeer of R&A dictat. We subsequently found out that virtually every state in the USA has a winter period, but no, not Scotland. He's the same prat who has stated that competition divisions should be split by CH and not playing handicap, creating the ludicrous situation where two players with the same PH can be in different divisions (thankfully most clubs seem to have been using common sense on this one)

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Had this argument with a SG official when WHS launched, said there had to be a winter period, he was having none of it, devoid of thought and a slavish followeer of R&A dictat. We subsequently found out that virtually every state in the USA has a winter period, but no, not Scotland. He's the same prat who has stated that competition divisions should be split by CH and not playing handicap, creating the ludicrous situation where two players with the same PH can be in different divisions (thankfully most clubs seem to have been using common sense on this one)

Interesting your use of the word dictat. Ever since WHS was introduced it does feel that clubs have let themselves become part of a hierarchy. The Golfing UNION of Ireland is now called Golf Ireland. The word Union is no longer applicable it seems. Each golf club still has the ability to decide for itself what makes for the fairest way to run their competitions but they often have pedants on committee who are happy to be told what to do rather than think for themselves. If the R&A doesn't start to work with and for the core club golfers there may come a time when their hierarchy is tree of empty placeholders.

 

[wjemather]

Interesting your use of the word dictat. Ever since WHS was introduced it does feel that clubs have let themselves become part of a hierarchy. The Golfing UNION of Ireland is now called Golf Ireland. The word Union is no longer applicable it seems. Each golf club still has the ability to decide for itself what makes for the fairest way to run their competitions but they often have pedants on committee who are happy to be told what to do rather than think for themselves. If the R&A doesn't start to work with and for the core club golfers there may come a time when their hierarchy is tree of empty placeholders.

Not quite. Golf Ireland was formed in 2019 by the merger of the Irish Ladies Golf Union and the Golfing Union of Ireland.
Similarly, England Golf came from the merger of English Golf Union and the English Women's Golf Association in 2012; Scottish Golf was the result of the merger of the Scottish Golf Union and the Scottish Ladies' Golfing Association in 2015; and the Golf Union of Wales rebranded as Wales Golf in 2017, the Welsh Golfing Union and the Welsh Ladies' Golf Union having merged in 2007.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Not quite. Golf Ireland was formed in 2019 by the merger of the Irish Ladies Golf Union and the Golfing Union of Ireland.
Similarly, England Golf came from the merger of English Golf Union and the English Women's Golf Association in 2012; Scottish Golf was the result of the merger of the Scottish Golf Union and the Scottish Ladies' Golfing Association in 2015; and the Golf Union of Wales rebranded as Wales Golf in 2017, the Welsh Golfing Union and the Welsh Ladies' Golf Union having merged in 2007.

Yes, widening the focus of an organisation often sees it losing its worth. Tempting to get into the whole One Club thing but I'm not going there. Suffice to say that the majority of ladies at my club are not happy.

The main point I wanted to make was the loss of the word Union. All clubs are equal and a union is simply a way for them to connect and organise. Changes need to be agreeable to all otherwise it risks collapse.

 

[badgergm]

I assume you mean GI not GUR.
Surely a member of CONGU would have to run their inter club nett competitions in line with WHS? The handicaps that they are not trusting and having to manipulate via a calculation not share yet and use of the Low Handicap Index rathe4 than the real ones, are all derived from WHS. They are a key stakeholder.

I confess that I am shocked that GI have been doing this for a year or so and now appear to be doubling down for next year.

This strikes me as a serious crack appearing in WHS.

Amazing.
If a body like Golf Ireland can run their competitions this way, why can’t golf clubs run their comps this way?
The use of low HI effectively means that the system is much more oriented towards a player’s potential rather than current form.

 

[badgergm]

Change all your board comps to medals.
Stableford is for novelty events.
Let the higher handicap players rack up some very big scores on some holes.
That should nullify a few big handicap winners.
Medal is proper golf after all.

This. Pretty much all our Saturday comps (and all trophy comps) are medals. In our 36 hole Captains comp this year, a high handicapper lost out by 2 shots in the 36 hole aggregate after a 14 at the notorious SI 1 par 5.