Official WHS Survey

[IanMac]

Additional eligibility criteria for Inter-Club competitions in 2025

In 2025, Golf Ireland will introduce two new elements to the Handicap eligibility criteria for most inter-club competitions.

www.golfireland.ie

That's the latest add-on mentioning the 4 competition cards. Let me see if I can find the lowest last year index which has been in place for at least two seasons.

https://www.golfireland.ie/clubs/1000/uploads/championships/interclub%20sum%20of%20changes%202.pdf

There's the full policy before the additional stuff. I used to play junior cup and Jimmy Bruen but our teams are all over the place with people dropping in and out of eligibility on a yearly basis. Other clubs seem better at keeping their teams together, I wonder how?

 

[abjectplop]

Interesting read that. If that's the route individual unions are going down, you would think the R&A/USGA are going to have to address it in some way, or you could end up with a country creating their own handicap systems and binning WHS altogether!

 

[PaulMdj]

You're making my point for me.

People here are blaming the system when what they actually have an issue with is some of the people using it.

Good, I’ve got very few issues with the system, but it isn’t perfect.

 

[D-S]

This looks like the Golf Ireland policy, cut from IanMac’s link.
“The outcome of this is that from 2025, a range of factors will be included in the calculation of the player’s eligibility handicap index. This will apply to competitions where players have traditionally used their lowest Handicap Index for the purposes of both eligibility and playing handicap. For the vast majority (an estimated 98.4%), players will continue to use the previous criteria of lowest HI in the previous calendar year. “

To me this looks as if you just use your Low Handicap Index, which shows a huge mistrust of perhaps not the system itself but the administration of it by the clubs. They look simply not to believe player’s WHS real handicaps. Quite amazing from one of the CONGU members.

 

[IanMac]

This looks like the Golf Ireland policy, cut from IanMac’s link.
“The outcome of this is that from 2025, a range of factors will be included in the calculation of the player’s eligibility handicap index. This will apply to competitions where players have traditionally used their lowest Handicap Index for the purposes of both eligibility and playing handicap. For the vast majority (an estimated 98.4%), players will continue to use the previous criteria of lowest HI in the previous calendar year. “

To me this looks as if you just use your Low Handicap Index, which shows a huge mistrust of perhaps not the system itself but the administration of it by the clubs. They look simply not to believe player’s WHS real handicaps. Quite amazing from one of the CONGU members.

Absolutely. And it's obvious to anyone who plays, and has played, interclub competitions over here. There were always a few clubs where the jury was out on their handicaps, i.e. they seemed to be very competitive every year. Now it's a free-for-all and the credibility of interclub competitions that involve handicap criteria is at an all time low. People like me just steer clear now.

We now often see junior cup players, lowest 2.5, appearing in Ulster cup teams, lowest allowed 11ish.

 

[clubchamp98]

This looks like the Golf Ireland policy, cut from IanMac’s link.
“The outcome of this is that from 2025, a range of factors will be included in the calculation of the player’s eligibility handicap index. This will apply to competitions where players have traditionally used their lowest Handicap Index for the purposes of both eligibility and playing handicap. For the vast majority (an estimated 98.4%), players will continue to use the previous criteria of lowest HI in the previous calendar year. “

To me this looks as if you just use your Low Handicap Index, which shows a huge mistrust of perhaps not the system itself but the administration of it by the clubs. They look simply not to believe player’s WHS real handicaps. Quite amazing from one of the CONGU members.

Basically there calling out the system and saying they don’t trust it.!

 

[rulefan]

That might be the case within a particular club but there needs to be wider trust between clubs. Here in Ireland our union, or whatever it's called now, has decreed that your interclub competition handicap is your lowest index from the previous calendar year and you must have played at least 4 competitions although they don't have to score in your top 8 in 20.

So sticking plasters already.

What have the WHS originators got to do with this?

 

[D-S]

What have the WHS originators got to do with this?

Aren’t Golf Ireland, either directly or via CONGU, part of the originators?

I can’t believe the R&A and USGA didn’t consult closely with CONGU and its members before getting them to disband their system in favour of WHS.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

No such system is possible, but WHS is the closest we have ever had.

Oh come on, you're just trolling as usual. It's clearly highly flawed, to such an extent that before 4 years are up the R&A and USGA are actually sending out surveys to club members. That's not the sign of success

 

[rulefan]

Aren’t Golf Ireland, either directly or via CONGU, part of the originators?

I can’t believe the R&A and USGA didn’t consult closely with CONGU and its members before getting them to disband their system in favour of WHS.

They were and they did.
Of course Supplementary Scores predated WHS but the controls in force under CONGU were not followed through.
But the WHS has nothing to do with with the way GUR run their interclub competitions.
Perhaps GI don't trust their players or clubs.

 

[D-S]

But the WHS has nothing to do with with the way GUR run their interclub competitions.

I assume you mean GI not GUR.
Surely a member of CONGU would have to run their inter club nett competitions in line with WHS? The handicaps that they are not trusting and having to manipulate via a calculation not share yet and use of the Low Handicap Index rathe4 than the real ones, are all derived from WHS. They are a key stakeholder.

I confess that I am shocked that GI have been doing this for a year or so and now appear to be doubling down for next year.

This strikes me as a serious crack appearing in WHS.

 

[IanMac]

I assume you mean GI not GUR.
Surely a member of CONGU would have to run their inter club nett competitions in line with WHS? The handicaps that they are not trusting and having to manipulate via a calculation not share yet and use of the Low Handicap Index rathe4 than the real ones, are all derived from WHS. They are a key stakeholder.

I confess that I am shocked that GI have been doing this for a year or so and now appear to be doubling down for next year.

This strikes me as a serious crack appearing in WHS.

Yes, cracks. I've asked the question within my club as to why we don't run our internal competitions using lowest index in last 12 months. Of course the match and handicap chap is a rabbit in the headlights. No correct answer to that.

 

[nickjdavis]

It all boils down to the desire to be inclusive to all, and the thought that, allowing folks to submit cards as and when they want, will deliver the desired level of inclusivity and drive numbers into the game.

All they need to do is to put a cap on the number of general play rounds that can be submitted by an individual in any given time period.

One card a week should be fine and, along with the soft cap (maybe a strengthening of the soft cap....bring it in at 2 shots and the hard cap at 4) should ameliorate the efforts to drive handicaps up, by those who flood their record with GP cards.

Edit: also change from best 8/20 to best 6/20 will have a small effect on mid single figure indexes (maybe reducing them by 0.3-0.5) whilst dropping higher handicaps by a bit more (around 1 shot for a typical 28 handicapper) based on the potted analysis I've just done from layers at my club

 

[jimbob.someroo]

A few hopefully quick WHS questions…I think I know the answers just need confirmation asap for a debate we are having at the club at this very moment…WhatsApp discussion is raging at the moment and I want my tuppence to be correct.

1) How many NRs can I have on a card to be submitted for WHS
2) Am I allowed at any time and for whatever reason I might chose to pick up my ball and score NR ( who’s to know in any case)
3) When I NR a hole, what score for the hole is allocated for WHS purposes
4) Is there a limit to the number of such cards present in my 20
5) Is there any penalty applied for having multiple such cards

The questions arise as my club proposes that our Saturday roll up should be submitted for WHS purposes…our rollup is casual friendly competitive with gimmies allowed. An option is for us to continue with gimmies and score NR for the hole on our WHS submission.

So this is the exact type of event that they should have been clearer with at the outset.

With the exception of the gimmies, this describes the general roll up at most clubs that England Golf 'suggested' members enter all scores from. The problem was that they can't enforce it, and so you've now got a situation where in the same roll up, somebody could tap in for a score each time (albeit, not taking any gimmies), and go up or down significantly over the course of a season by only playing in these events. Whereas, others could shoot 40 points every week and not see their handicap change as they're not submitting their score.

I don't really care either way (although would have a preference for all proper 'club roll ups' counting for handicap purposes), but by leaving it open to each group - and technically each person within each group - they've left the door open far too wide for abuse.

 

[D-S]

It all boils down to the desire to be inclusive to all, and the thought that, allowing folks to submit cards as and when they want, will deliver the desired level of inclusivity and drive numbers into the game.

All they need to do is to put a cap on the number of general play rounds that can be submitted by an individual in any given time period.

One card a week should be fine and, along with the soft cap (maybe a strengthening of the soft cap....bring it in at 2 shots and the hard cap at 4) should ameliorate the efforts to drive handicaps up, by those who flood their record with GP cards.

I agree with a lot of this but I also find unlimited cards throughout the winter troubling.
If you rated most run of the mill courses for winter 5c, windy and wet fairways with no roll, they would come out considerably higher as they play significantly longer, together with uneven greens and muddy lies to chip off.
This means that those who choose to play and put cards in winter almost invariably go up, those who don’t, because they don’t play or are at a course where qualifiers aren’t played or playable in winter, stay the same.

 

[clubchamp98]

I think the fact we are all still debating this proves a lot of us really don’t think WHS is fit for purpose.

Might work ok in warmer climates but in the UK it’s not.

That’s before we get to the manipulation of the system.!

 

[IanMac]

I agree with a lot of this but I also find unlimited cards throughout the winter troubling.
If you rated most run of the mill courses for winter 5c, windy and wet fairways with no roll, they would come out considerably higher as they play significantly longer, together with uneven greens and muddy lies to chip off.
This means that those who choose to play and put cards in winter almost invariably go up, those who don’t, because they don’t play or are at a course where qualifiers aren’t played or playable in winter, stay the same.

On my course, and I think most courses in Ireland, our rounds don't qualify for 5 months of the year, Nov to Mar. There are winter leagues, turkey competitions etc and therefore a considerable amount of golf is played outside qualifying conditions. Some people play much more through these 5 months than they play in the normal season. We play a shorten course with the rough cut back. There is no significant reduction in slope and therefore the high handicappers have a field day, lots of turkeys and their handicaps remain largely untouched. It's a links course so we have no wet fairway problems.

 

[IanMac]

I think the fact we are all still debating this proves a lot of us really don’t think WHS is fit for purpose.

Might work ok in warmer climates but in the UK it’s not.

That’s before we get to the manipulation of the system.!

I assume that this is the motivation behind the recent survey. I just hope they pay attention to the results and get on with binning it. Ok, keep the idea of slope as that's just SSS by another name but average of best 8 from last 20 is an abomination. Go back to the old system for handicap index calculation please, please, please!!!!