No Returns in Stablefords

[rosecott]

I thought I would start a new thread following on from some posts on the "WHS doesn't work" thread.

I tell players that it is not technically possible to NR in a stableford comp unless you pack in playing after 9 holes or less.

I would be interested if this happens at other clubs as it doesn't happen at ours.

 

[Imurg]

I've seen the occasional one on our results sheets and I can't quite get my head around it either...
Unless it's such an embarrassing card that they don't want to enter it but then they'd be DQ'd wouldn't they..?

 

[IanM]

What happens to the playing record if cards are not handed in...we always have to or three of those?

 

[wjemather]

I thought I would start a new thread following on from some posts on the "WHS doesn't work" thread.

I tell players that it is not technically possible to NR in a stableford comp unless you pack in playing after 9 holes or less.

I would be interested if this happens at other clubs as it doesn't happen at ours.

Well technically, it isn't possible to "NR" anything other than individual holes, which then simply count as 0 points in a Stableford. Possible results are either the number of points scored for the holes played if a properly completed scorecard is returned, or DQ without one.

If a counting round for handicapping, then the player gets a reminder of their responsibilities and attempts are made to establish any actual scores (and assess whether they can be submitted) and/or whether there is a valid reason for not completing the round or not returning the scores. If not, then an appropriate Penalty Score is likely to be applied.

 

[wjemather]

What happens to the playing record if cards are not handed in...we always have to or three of those?

Among the responsibilities of your handicap committee is following up missing scores and taking appropriate action (educating players, entering discovered scores, applying penalty scores, etc.). If they are not doing this, questions should be asked.

 

[Old Skier]

What happens to the playing record if cards are not handed in...we always have to or three of those?

We must register on the PSI prior to going out. If you fail to enter your card for any reason, the system picks it up and the WHS database automatically will look at penalty scores and email the offender accordingly.
I regularly send out emails warning members of the consequences, it still happens, member bleats, I smile, and let the system do its thing.

 

[jim8flog]

It happens at our place when players are too lazy to record their actual scores on the PSI or App.

One of the things where I play is that in club comps the cards etc are handled by the office staff and I know the person responsible probably does not have the time to go chasing up the players.

We get quite a few DQs for cards not returned. At one time we used to issue warning letters to such players but it was found to take too much time of the person who was responsible for handling the cards.

We also get quite a few NRs on holes where it should be NS.

 

[Swango1980]

We must register on the PSI prior to going out. If you fail to enter your card for any reason, the system picks it up and the WHS database automatically will look at penalty scores and email the offender accordingly.
I regularly send out emails warning members of the consequences, it still happens, member bleats, I smile, and let the system do its thing.

What does the system do now? I've a mate at another club, I think they use howdidido. He has a habit of just giving up on a round, and not handing in his score. Despite being a fairly "respected" club in the area, they just put the score in as all zeros (not sure if they physically do this, or the system does this if no card submitted). Anyway, looking at his record, his last 5 rounds have 2 scores of 129 and 1 score of 130. Basically, it has assumed he has had 18 nett double bogeys in 3 rounds of his last 5. 5 rounds ago, his Index was 17.8 (course handicap 21). It is now 20.0 (course handicap 23). After individual rounds, he had a couple of 0.6 increases alone.

He doesn't actually play that much, to be fair. But if he did, I guess he'd quickly reach the hard cap with a similar mindset. Especially as his best 8 rounds are generally amongst his oldest, so he will be losing them pretty quickly once he submits more scores.

 

[wjemather]

What does the system do now? I've a mate at another club, I think they use howdidido. He has a habit of just giving up on a round, and not handing in his score. Despite being a fairly "respected" club in the area, they just put the score in as all zeros (not sure if they physically do this, or the system does this if no card submitted). Anyway, looking at his record, his last 5 rounds have 2 scores of 129 and 1 score of 130. Basically, it has assumed he has had 18 nett double bogeys in 3 rounds of his last 5. 5 rounds ago, his Index was 17.8 (course handicap 21). It is now 20.0 (course handicap 23). After individual rounds, he had a couple of 0.6 increases alone.

He doesn't actually play that much, to be fair. But if he did, I guess he'd quickly reach the hard cap with a similar mindset. Especially as his best 8 rounds are generally amongst his oldest, so he will be losing them pretty quickly once he submits more scores.

I'm sure you know the answer to this by now - your mate's handicap committee (if there is one) is failing in its responsibilities. Questions need to be asked.

 

[HeftyHacker]

One of our committee members used to be renowned for NRing if his round was going well enough for him to get a cut but not well enough to be in the prizes.

Looking at his handicap record it looks as though he still does this and accepts net double bogey on every hole thereafter.

In fact this has prompted me to mention this to the handicap sec as its blatant manipulation and keeping his handicap up.

No love lost, he's probably the only person I've met at the club that I've actively disliked.

 

[sunshine]

What does the system do now? I've a mate at another club, I think they use howdidido. He has a habit of just giving up on a round, and not handing in his score. Despite being a fairly "respected" club in the area, they just put the score in as all zeros (not sure if they physically do this, or the system does this if no card submitted). Anyway, looking at his record, his last 5 rounds have 2 scores of 129 and 1 score of 130. Basically, it has assumed he has had 18 nett double bogeys in 3 rounds of his last 5. 5 rounds ago, his Index was 17.8 (course handicap 21). It is now 20.0 (course handicap 23). After individual rounds, he had a couple of 0.6 increases alone.

He doesn't actually play that much, to be fair. But if he did, I guess he'd quickly reach the hard cap with a similar mindset. Especially as his best 8 rounds are generally amongst his oldest, so he will be losing them pretty quickly once he submits more scores.

I think this is how it works at my club. On the basis that this is not going to feature as one of the best 8 rounds I guess it really doesn't matter? I suppose it only becomes an issue if a player is doing it repeatedly and it starts to distort their HI.

 

[wjemather]

I think this is how it works at my club. On the basis that this is not going to feature as one of the best 8 rounds I guess it really doesn't matter? I suppose it only becomes an issue if a player is doing it repeatedly and it starts to distort their HI.

It's how things currently operate at too many clubs, particularly those that leave everything to the software.
We can't assume that any score will not be in the best 8 at some point in the future, especially without knowing what the score is (or would have been without "giving up" - something which also makes a score unacceptable).

 

[rosecott]

I think this is how it works at my club. On the basis that this is not going to feature as one of the best 8 rounds I guess it really doesn't matter? I suppose it only becomes an issue if a player is doing it repeatedly and it starts to distort their HI.

An extract from the Rules of Handicapping on the player's responsibilities:

The player will

Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole.
Where applicable, ensure all acceptable scores are submitted for handicap purposes, including scores from outside the player’s home jurisdiction.
Acceptable scores should be submitted: l Before midnight on the day of play, and l In the correct chronological order.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm sure you know the answer to this by now - your mate's handicap committee (if there is one) is failing in its responsibilities. Questions need to be asked.

Indeed. And the fact this is very visibly being done in comps, no real excuse about doing it discretely. No idea why they don't act, or whether they think it is not really an issue. That is their problem to learn I guess

 

[woofers]

But it is an issue, applying 18 nett double bogeys is wrong as evidenced by the handicap increase in the example above. That’s clearly unfair on the rest of the golfing community.
A penalty score should be applied, the ISV should be set up for this, I believe there are options for high or low penalty scores, Committee can apply the most suitable.
Persistent offenders could be barred from entering competitions for a period of time, and / or their handicap index can be frozen, all after suitable discussions (warnings?) of course.
I believe the Rules of Golf and Rules of Handicapping support these actions.

 

[2blue]

But it is an issue, applying 18 nett double bogeys is wrong as evidenced by the handicap increase in the example above. That’s clearly unfair on the rest of the golfing community.
A penalty score should be applied, the ISV should be set up for this, I believe there are options for high or low penalty scores, Committee can apply the most suitable.
Persistent offenders could be barred from entering competitions for a period of time, and / or their handicap index can be frozen, all after suitable discussions (warnings?) of course.
I believe the Rules of Golf and Rules of Handicapping support these actions.

It's what we do.