Nhs nurse shortage

[hors limite]

The Nurse Educationalists - and yes I know a couple - explain that a degree of knowledge (sorry ) is required as nurses have to understand the the studies and evidence that underpins evidence-based practice at the core of today's nursing. And they say that this understanding cannot be garnered and learned without formal concentrated degree-level education. The days of starting as an SEN (as did my wife) and getting your RGN on the job with part-time study have gone.

Just to be clear, are you saying that today's nurses are more competent than those of your wife's generation.
Your first two sentences do come over as an affront to plain english!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just to be clear, are you saying that today's nurses are more competent than those of your wife's generation.
Your first two sentences do come over as an affront to plain english!

Not saying that at all. The Nurse Educationalists believe that the basic knowledge requirements for nursing have changed significantly from when my wife did her training 35yrs ago - as nursing is these days all evidence-based and a lot more complex than in the past. Nurses therefore need to understand the evidence that underpins their practice, before they can successfully and safely put it into practice.

We still meet up regularly and go on holiday with four nurses (and their hubbies) with whom my wife did her training 35 yrs ago. Two are 'Educationalists'; two are 'Practitioners', and one sits in the middle trying to keep the peace. Their discussions are 'vigorous' and animated,

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

We run recruitment fairs (sometimes in conjunction with job centres for roles like porters, housekeepers, chefs - they are usually rammed). Our senior nursing staff do go to universities, usually to those running nursing and midwifery degree courses, to sell the Trust and encourage applicants. We have been actively recruiting in Ireland, Spain and Portugal for nursing staff. We are trying to be proactive while trying to ensure we get the best candidates we can (we do nurse and midwifery assessment centres to test drugs calculations, interviews, group discussions, and we do literacy, IT and numeracy testing for HCA's). It's hard balancing the needs of the trust and the need to ensure we get suitable and competent candidates and then the struggle to get their pre-employment checks done in a timely manner. Qualified and experienced nurses and midwives are almost as rare as a handicap cut for me

So I understand - the selfish upside of that being that when we move (in the next few years) my wife - being a Breast Cancer Nurse Specialist and also a Midwife (though out of reg) should be able to get a job reasonably easily - we hope.

 

[hors limite]

Not saying that at all. The Nurse Educationalists believe that the basic knowledge requirements for nursing have changed significantly from when my wife did her training 35yrs ago - as nursing is these days all evidence-based and a lot more complex than in the past. Nurses therefore need to understand the evidence that underpins their practice, before they can successfully and safely put it into practice.

We still meet up regularly and go on holiday with four nurses (and their hubbies) with whom my wife did her training 35 yrs ago. Two are 'Educationalists'; two are 'Practitioners', and one sits in the middle trying to keep the peace. Their discussions are 'vigorous' and animated,

If you are saying that your wife's generation is of equal competence they must have acquired their understanding "on the job". I suppose the " Nurse Educationalists"* would be bound to believe in their classrooms.
* what a bloody silly title

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you are saying that your wife's generation is of equal competence they must have acquired their understanding "on the job". I suppose the " Nurse Educationalists"* would be bound to believe in their classrooms.
* what a bloody silly title

I made up the title. You hit the nail on the head. My wife and one of her friends (a senior midwife as it happens) are in the 'Practitioner' learn-on-the-job camp - arguing that whilst some nursing absolutely does justify getting a degree level understanding (more than it did) there are many young people whop would make brilliant nurses - but either do not have the academic ability, aptitude or inclination to spend three years doing a degree - and it seems excluded from a full nursing career. Yes there are other nursing roles such could go in to - but my wife and friend do not see the need to have a degree at the outset of a nurses training. The 'Educationalists' seem to see it as a necessary prerequisite.

And so if we want a full 7 day a week NHS - we better get a lot of nurses into training asap as it's going to be three years before they are qualified and fully ready for the job (although they'll of course be in training roles in hospitals from time to time during their course)

 

[Tashyboy]

SILH, reading your post I could of written half of that. Missis Tash has also been nursing 35 years give or take a month and she qualified as a SEN nurse first having failed her first two exams as a SRN. (Not RGN ) ah the good old days. She passed her SRN at the third and final attempt. Apparently you could only have three attempts.

oh to be a fly on the wall re the argument between two camps. Yup fully understand that nursing and the NHS has changed since its inception, but I believe that Missis T would argue there is not enough hands on learning to go with knowledge based learning along the NVQ way of education.

in fact am sure Missis T would argue all day that most modern nurses would be able to write an A grade paper on the insertion of a catheter in a disabled person at home, but in reality would not not a clue how to put a brake on the wheelchair before touching said patient.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

SILH, reading your post I could of written half of that. Missis Tash has also been nursing 35 years give or take a month and she qualified as a SEN nurse first having failed her first two exams as a SRN. (Not RGN ) ah the good old days. She passed her SRN at the third and final attempt. Apparently you could only have three attempts.

oh to be a fly on the wall re the argument between two camps. Yup fully understand that nursing and the NHS has changed since its inception, but I believe that Missis T would argue there is not enough hands on learning to go with knowledge based learning along the NVQ way of education.

in fact am sure Missis T would argue all day that most modern nurses would be able to write an A grade paper on the insertion of a catheter in a disabled person at home, but in reality would not not a clue how to put a brake on the wheelchair before touching said patient.

My Mrs mentioned a conversation she heard of (it's probably apocryphal tbh) where a newly qualified nurse - when asked somewhat sarcastically when patient on a ward needed cleaning after a toilet mistake - 'don't you know how to do clean a patient in bed' (in other words - get on with it) she replied straight faced - oh yes - we did that in our degree.

That said - the nurses in the new (£868m ) Southern General in Glasgow where my mum has been for the last few weeks have been great.

 

[delc]

K

I guess that many wouldn't be suitable for the job

Some of them must be! Is it fair for the NHS to raid trained staff from other countries' healthcare systems anyway?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Some of them must be! Is it fair for the NHS to raid trained staff from other countries' healthcare systems anyway?

And if it's not fair and we stop - as the new government policy is going someway towards make happen - then who fills the huge gap that will open up? The NHS can't get enough nurses into training at the moment - even although the NHS funds the nursing degree 100% - and the complete package looks very attractive.

All eligible students will usually:

o have their tuition fees paid in full
o receive a £1,000 grant each year
o be eligible to apply for an additional means-tested bursary of up to £4,395 per year. Students in London will qualify for more (up to £5,460)

 

[Hobbit]

And if it's not fair and we stop - as the new government policy is going someway towards make happen - then who fills the huge gap that will open up? The NHS can't get enough nurses into training at the moment - even although the NHS funds the nursing degree 100% - and the complete package looks very attractive.

All eligible students will usually:

o have their tuition fees paid in full
o receive a £1,000 grant each year
o be eligible to apply for an additional means-tested bursary of up to £4,395 per year. Students in London will qualify for more (up to £5,460)

Do they get a wage whilst they're in training?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Do they get a wage whilst they're in training?

Not that I am aware - looking at Bham Unis BNurse course - they get 2 weeks holiday each of Christmas and Easter and 6 weeks for Summer. The remaining 42 weeks they are students doing the course.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

A welcome change of heart or realisation of the foolishnesss of the policy. Wonder which of Hunt or May will be telling us all how this was all part of the plan.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...erseas-to-be-temporarily-lifted-a6696036.html

 

[HomerJSimpson]

We held a recruitment fair this morning for midwives and staff nurses. Great response and plenty of keen, mainly newly qualified (or about to qualify in January) for the matrons to interview. Been a lot of hard work to organise and will be interesting to sit down in the management meeting and get the feedback

 

[Ethan]

Out of interest, does the NHS go into schools to make presentations and entice school leavers to 'sign up' for a career as a nurse, doctor etc? Yes, I know it requires college, training and you can't just jump in. But, it would sow the seed with some and perhaps lead to more following that career path.

I seem to recall it being a particularly successful recruiting tool for the armed forces.

Or is it the case that the command structure in the NHS (for want of a better term) is too bloated and inefficient, incapable of executing policy change and unable to make decisions in a timely manner?
Ultimately leading to a culture of inactivity, inaction and inevitability when it comes to recruitment.

I wouldn't know myself, but it would seem to me when we still have a lot of unemployment that there is a possibility that some with potential may have slipped through the net.

Medicine remains a high demand university course. Every place is competitive and none go unfilled. The problem is retaining doctors after they graduate. In the past, there were good career structures where they could treat patients rather than fill in radicalisation forms, and they had a good salary and good pension. All of these are being eroded now, because the ideology of the Govt for the NHS is that it should be a market. OK, fine, but the same market exists in labour and doctors are making the rational choice and going off to Oz or Canada where pay and conditions are better and they are allowed to better practice medicine.

The NHS would do better with a more centralised command structure rather than the disaggregated and duplicated plethora of structures it has now.