Nhs nurse shortage

[hors limite]

Apparently the NHS is short of nurses and wants to meet this shortage by recruiting nurses from overseas. At the same time, the NHS wants the immigration rules to be relaxed for this particular category.
If anyone can provide informed answers to the following questions I would be particularly grateful.

!. Are there specialists within this multi- billion pound operation who are tasked with analysing and projecting staffing needs over the years to come?
2 If so is there a logical linkage with the organisations training new nurses adapting supply to demand?
3 If funding is a constraint, why is the country spending educational resources on degree courses which, if we are to believe what we read, is rewarding the graduates with a job behind the counter of McDonalds?

On the face of it , it seems to me to be a damning indictment of the management capabilities of the NHS.

 

[Tashyboy]

I think you answered your three questions quite well with with your last statement.

i will give an example.
my beloved was employed as a Bank nurse co-ordinater at a local Hospital/ Trust.
Her previous job in Nursing was made defunct as not now required any more ( then a few years later the job was reintroduced , another story).
anyway she applied for this job as a Bank nurse co-ordination, and got it. She gave one stipulation. That she could be "hands on " with Care assistants who she Hired and fired on the wards when it came to there training, and with Nurses when it came to updating there training. She took courses in training and assessing and teaching in classes.

Listening to her friends talk the training was of the highest standard. I asked her one day, " how do you set a standard". she said " if there not good enough to look after you, me of our families then I will either get them to that level or ship them out". She did that with a lot of staff who had been employed through a previous regime. Furthermore she encouraged many care assistants to become nurses.

When it came to covering shifts the department covered in the high 90% every week, shifts where nurses and care assistants were off due to holidays, sickness etc 24/7. She loved that job.

Then, a new management team came in and asked we are paying nearly 35K a year for my beloved. Her role was then finished.

Because she she has history in Gynaecology, surgical, Urology, a trial role was set up as urology outreach. In essence it is making hundreds of thousands for the trust every year. The role has gone from two to three nurses and they still could do more. This job is better than her " Bank nurse co-ordinators role. However

the local MP Gloria Del Piero asked through the freedom of information act a month or so ago how much the local trust is paying "agency fees" when it comes to Nurses, care assistants, Drs. In the time since Missis Tash has finished in her role. The grand total is £6 million quid.

now in that time they have saved 35k for three years, and yes they would of paid wages for Bank staff. But no where near 6 million and some of the standards of nursing that have been employed have been shocking.

Shortage in Nursing, it should never be allowed to happen, the NHS like industry

A, does not want to pay for apprentices/ training costs, when.
B, it can get cheap Trained? Staff from abroad.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think you answered your three questions quite well with with your last statement.

i will give an example.
my beloved was employed as a Bank nurse co-ordinater at a local Hospital/ Trust.
Her previous job in Nursing was made defunct as not now required any more ( then a few years later the job was reintroduced , another story).
anyway she applied for this job as a Bank nurse co-ordination, and got it. She gave one stipulation. That she could be "hands on " with Care assistants who she Hired and fired on the wards when it came to there training, and with Nurses when it came to updating there training. She took courses in training and assessing and teaching in classes.

Listening to her friends talk the training was of the highest standard. I asked her one day, " how do you set a standard". she said " if there not good enough to look after you, me of our families then I will either get them to that level or ship them out". She did that with a lot of staff who had been employed through a previous regime. Furthermore she encouraged many care assistants to become nurses.

When it came to covering shifts the department covered in the high 90% every week, shifts where nurses and care assistants were off due to holidays, sickness etc 24/7. She loved that job.

Then, a new management team came in and asked we are paying nearly 35K a year for my beloved. Her role was then finished.

Because she she has history in Gynaecology, surgical, Urology, a trial role was set up as urology outreach. In essence it is making hundreds of thousands for the trust every year. The role has gone from two to three nurses and they still could do more. This job is better than her " Bank nurse co-ordinators role. However

the local MP Gloria Del Piero asked through the freedom of information act a month or so ago how much the local trust is paying "agency fees" when it comes to Nurses, care assistants, Drs. In the time since Missis Tash has finished in her role. The grand total is £6 million quid.

now in that time they have saved 35k for three years, and yes they would of paid wages for Bank staff. But no where near 6 million and some of the standards of nursing that have been employed have been shocking.

Shortage in Nursing, it should never be allowed to happen, the NHS like industry

A, does not want to pay for apprentices/ training costs, when.
B, it can get cheap Trained? Staff from abroad.

Might have been the case in the past but the new bright idea from the government is that such as nurses from say the Phillipines who come to UK to work will get hoofed out if they aren't earning £35k after 6yrs in the UK. So they are stopping coming here. They would come in the past for long term stability and earning potential to send home - and for that they put up with leaving home and family to come to UK. But why do that if you are going to get kicked out after 6yrs? (if anyone was wondering most nurses don't earn £35k)

And so NHS recruitment teams trying to recruit from their usual places are now struggling - the new legislation has undermined that recruitment. Mayber of course that was the point of the policy,

 

[PhilTheFragger]

I would concur with Hogan on this,
As many of you know I spent 12 days in Stoke Mandeville in May with a prolapsed disc and got to know some of the staff quite well.

In particular a 29 year old male care assistant from Manilla , lovely bloke, great temperament, possible knew more than some of the nurses.

His problem was that he has been here for 5 years and has to go back next year as his visa runs out.
He was part of a team that went to the Phillippines on a recruitment mission, they didn't reach their target as this visa/ earnings rule is a real deal breaker.

The NHS rely on foreign nurses/ care assistants, without them a crisis is certain, so why put these barriers in the way.

Alternatively, get rid of most of the top managerial layers, get rid of the accountants who run everything, increase staff levels to reduce work related stress,
This will reduce staff sickness, reduce reliance on bank nurses.

It's not going to happen overnight, it needs a long term plan, but ultimately we need to recruit many more UK nurses, and retain those we have.

 

[Ethan]

The NHS has become too disaggregated, and allowed too much 'local decision making'. In reality, LDM is having little power but being asked to cut back different things in different places.

But efficient workforce (formerly known as manpower) planning has gone out the window. There used to be central planning and the DH could direct the flow of staff where it was needed. No more.

Same with junior doctors. Trusts are now allowed to create all kinds of new permanent sub-Consultant grades to give the pretence of having doctors who have completed training but who are paid less. They have also labelled loads of other disciplines as Consultant (Nurses, Psychologists etc) to give the same effect. My wife (who is a medical Consultant) took our son to an OP clinic where he was seen by someone who introduced herself as Name, the Consultant. It later turned out she was a Nurse Consultant. If they can con actual Consultants, they can con anyone.

Also, Trusts under financial pressure (i.e. all of them , especially those in PFI buildings) can save money quickest through staff cut backs, so they trim staff levels back to the minimum. Feast staff and lowest skill mix that they can get away with. Sometimes they overdo it and leave things dangerously low. In the old days wards had loads of staff nurses (fully trained) and a few enrolled nurses (less training but pretty good). Nowadays they have a staff nurses or two, a few enrolled and a few healthcare assistants with little training. It is no wonder there are frequent disasters or that cock ups happen. It is a wonder they don't happen more often.

 

[Tashyboy]

Just been talking to Missis T about this as we dropped her car off for some work.

she said the managers at our local hospital have just come back from the Philippines and recruited 60-70 nurses.

she said if a ward has 2 nurses and four care assistants, do away with a care assistant and pay to have a student nurse as per the old days where from day one you are hands on as a student. She says she has trained modern day students, who have said I don't need to bed bath patient A because I did it on another ward so know how to do it. She said, Some are going into nursing with the full intention of going into management with very basic/ minimum nursing skills.

shes just gone off to work chuntering " Al be glad am done July 2017"

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I work in recruitment at an NHS trust and we simply cannot get experienced nurses through the door quick enough, either from home or abroad. With the proposed changes the job will be made even harder, we'll have more shortages and bank costs will rise even more

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I work in recruitment at an NHS trust and we simply cannot get experienced nurses through the door quick enough, either from home or abroad. With the proposed changes the job will be made even harder, we'll have more shortages and bank costs will rise even more

The law of unintended consequences when a government comes up with a policy that is aimed at presenting a specific political stance to their electorate rather than one that is actually and practically sensible.

 

[hors limite]

I work in recruitment at an NHS trust and we simply cannot get experienced nurses through the door quick enough, either from home or abroad. With the proposed changes the job will be made even harder, we'll have more shortages and bank costs will rise even more

But where is the forward planning married to training?

 

[c1973]

Out of interest, does the NHS go into schools to make presentations and entice school leavers to 'sign up' for a career as a nurse, doctor etc? Yes, I know it requires college, training and you can't just jump in. But, it would sow the seed with some and perhaps lead to more following that career path.

I seem to recall it being a particularly successful recruiting tool for the armed forces.

Or is it the case that the command structure in the NHS (for want of a better term) is too bloated and inefficient, incapable of executing policy change and unable to make decisions in a timely manner?
Ultimately leading to a culture of inactivity, inaction and inevitability when it comes to recruitment.

I wouldn't know myself, but it would seem to me when we still have a lot of unemployment that there is a possibility that some with potential may have slipped through the net.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Out of interest, does the NHS go into schools to make presentations and entice school leavers to 'sign up' for a career as a nurse, doctor etc? Yes, I know it requires college, training and you can't just jump in. But, it would sow the seed with some and perhaps lead to more following that career path.

I seem to recall it being a particularly successful recruiting tool for the armed forces.

Or is it the case that the command structure in the NHS (for want of a better term) is too bloated and inefficient, incapable of executing policy change and unable to make decisions in a timely manner?
Ultimately leading to a culture of inactivity, inaction and inevitability when it comes to recruitment.

I wouldn't know myself, but it would seem to me when we still have a lot of unemployment that there is a possibility that some with potential may have slipped through the net.

There may be - but as you need to have a degree to be a nurse these days many may simply not have the academic ability or inclination to study for one.

 

[hors limite]

There may be - but as you need to have a degree to be a nurse these days many may simply not have the academic ability or inclination to study for one.

Another can of worms - does EVERY nurse really need a degree?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Another can of worms - does EVERY nurse really need a degree?

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/nursing/

Education and training

To work as a nurse in the NHS, you must be registered with the Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC), which means you'll need a degree in nursing. Diploma courses are no longer available. You can use our course finder to find nursing degrees.

 

[Tashyboy]

Do you need to have a degree to be a copper or fireman ? If not why a nurse.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Out of interest, does the NHS go into schools to make presentations and entice school leavers to 'sign up' for a career as a nurse, doctor etc? Yes, I know it requires college, training and you can't just jump in. But, it would sow the seed with some and perhaps lead to more following that career path.

I seem to recall it being a particularly successful recruiting tool for the armed forces.

Or is it the case that the command structure in the NHS (for want of a better term) is too bloated and inefficient, incapable of executing policy change and unable to make decisions in a timely manner?
Ultimately leading to a culture of inactivity, inaction and inevitability when it comes to recruitment.

I wouldn't know myself, but it would seem to me when we still have a lot of unemployment that there is a possibility that some with potential may have slipped through the net.

We run recruitment fairs (sometimes in conjunction with job centres for roles like porters, housekeepers, chefs - they are usually rammed). Our senior nursing staff do go to universities, usually to those running nursing and midwifery degree courses, to sell the Trust and encourage applicants. We have been actively recruiting in Ireland, Spain and Portugal for nursing staff. We are trying to be proactive while trying to ensure we get the best candidates we can (we do nurse and midwifery assessment centres to test drugs calculations, interviews, group discussions, and we do literacy, IT and numeracy testing for HCA's). It's hard balancing the needs of the trust and the need to ensure we get suitable and competent candidates and then the struggle to get their pre-employment checks done in a timely manner. Qualified and experienced nurses and midwives are almost as rare as a handicap cut for me

 

[delc]

We run recruitment fairs (sometimes in conjunction with job centres for roles like porters, housekeepers, chefs - they are usually rammed). Our senior nursing staff do go to universities, usually to those running nursing and midwifery degree courses, to sell the Trust and encourage applicants. We have been actively recruiting in Ireland, Spain and Portugal for nursing staff. We are trying to be proactive while trying to ensure we get the best candidates we can (we do nurse and midwifery assessment centres to test drugs calculations, interviews, group discussions, and we do literacy, IT and numeracy testing for HCA's). It's hard balancing the needs of the trust and the need to ensure we get suitable and competent candidates and then the struggle to get their pre-employment checks done in a timely manner. Qualified and experienced nurses and midwives are almost as rare as a handicap cut for me

Why can't we train up the millions of young British people who are currently unemployed to do these jobs? Why is it always necessary to bring in foreigners to do them? In a lot of cases they would be more valuable to their own countries!

 

[chrisd]

K

Why can't we train up the millions of young British people who are currently unemployed to do these jobs? Why is it always necessary to bring in foreigners to do them? In a lot of cases they would be more valuable to their own countries!

I guess that many wouldn't be suitable for the job

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Why can't we train up the millions of young British people who are currently unemployed to do these jobs? Why is it always necessary to bring in foreigners to do them? In a lot of cases they would be more valuable to their own countries!

In a perfect world Del,
You need to look at what makes the job unattractive .

1 , you need a degree ( Nurse/ Midwife)
2 , the pay isn't fantastic and is subject to public sector wage constraints
3, 11 1/2 or 12 1/2 hour shifts, this plays havoc with childcare, few other jobs have such long shifts.
4 , on the go all the time, often can't take breaks.
5 , stress
6 , make a mistake and you get sued.
7, ,it's blooming hard work

One of my daughters is a 2nd year midwifery student.

So, increase pay, reduce shifts to 8 hours, etc etc and you should get more recruits

 

[Foxholer]

Why can't we train up the millions of young British people who are currently unemployed to do these jobs? Why is it always necessary to bring in foreigners to do them? In a lot of cases they would be more valuable to their own countries!

Del. What world are you living in, because it doesn't seem to be a real one!

1. There are not 'millions' of young British people unemployed, though at 738K in the 16-24 age range, there's probably many more than desirable!

2. How many of those do you really consider would be suitable candidates for Nursing/Midwifery? If they were suitable, don't you think they'd have already made the effort?

3. How long do you think the training process for such a role is anyway - and what does the NHS do for that period?

I hope your reasoning is significantly better when flying a glider!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Do you need to have a degree to be a copper or fireman ? If not why a nurse.

The Nurse Educationalists - and yes I know a couple - explain that a degree of knowledge (sorry ) is required as nurses have to understand the the studies and evidence that underpins evidence-based practice at the core of today's nursing. And they say that this understanding cannot be garnered and learned without formal concentrated degree-level education. The days of starting as an SEN (as did my wife) and getting your RGN on the job with part-time study have gone.