New Rules 2019 - Out of Bounds

[jim8flog]

Not necessarily. Preferred lies is an allowable local rule but CONGU limits the times of the year during which it can be used for qualifying rounds. It also permits the use of fairway mats in winter for qualifiers.

Outside of the specific period of time a club can apply to County to apply preferred lies and in fact our and other Area authorities extended this period automatically because of the wet winter.

Having only fully read the new rule this morning

For guidance on when and how this Local Rule may be used in order for scores to be submitted for handicapping purposes, consult the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction.

you could be right but I think this means area outside of CONGU eg other areas of Europe

 

[rulefan]

What is different from an OOB ball and one in a WH?

What is different between a ball not found, an OOB ball and one in a WH?

 

[Colin L]

I don't either, if all you consider is having hit the ball into an unplayable situation from which relief is necessary to keep playing. The rules provide different means to do it depending on which it is. As I have said, a drop is allowed from a WH because a drop appgarding reroximates a stroke. S&D is required in the other because there is no legal stroke that can be approximated.

I think it is more than a habit...it is a principle that exists in all sports...play is permitted only on the specified area/field. I am unaware of any time in that 400 years when an OOB ball could be played from OOB.

Why do you think S&D has been the only option for an OOB ball? What is different from an OOB ball and one in a WH? One is on the playing area the other not.

(I'm repeating, so I'll stop.)

I shall stop too! An interesting argument, thank you, but no doubt enough time spent on it.

Why would CONGU tell us it can’t be used in qualifying rounds?
Surely that would put them at loggerheads with the R&A?

I expect the principle reason why CONGU might do this is because of a concern over handicapping inconsistency since we could well have a situation where a number of clubs have adopted it in full, a number have adopted it for only certain holes, a number have adopted it for ordinary medals but not for their club "majors" - a proportion of which have adopted it for only certain holes - and a number have not adopted it at all. I can see it being considered important to ensure that all qualifying competitions are played throughout CONGU jurisdiction to the same set of rules.

It wouldn't be appropriate, in my view, for CONGU to take a stance against the R&A/USGA over its appropriateness as a rule of golf.

 

[atticusfinch]

What is different between a ball not found, an OOB ball and one in a WH?

The ball in the WH is on the course. It can be played as iies or moved to a legislated lie according to the rule and then played. The other two are not permitted to be played as they lie and must be located in a playable lie through S&D.

The new LR creates a legislated lie for them which defeats the basic "no play" rule. (I consider taking relief under the rules as play.)

 

[Colin L]

What about a ball in a penalty area designated as a no play zone?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Wow, so if I drive OOB and there’s 5, 10 or 15 metres between the OOB and the fairway, I can come right out onto the fairway ( no nearer) and drop on the short stuff!

I’ll go look for that video.

I measured the gap between fairway and oob on one of our holes we are considering introducing it on, 43yds at widest point!

 

[rulefan]

Wow, so if I drive OOB and there’s 5, 10 or 15 metres between the OOB and the fairway, I can come right out onto the fairway ( no nearer) and drop on the short stuff!

I’ll go look for that video.

See here
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/8e
and go down through 8.E-5

 

[jim8flog]

What happens with this rule when there is no fairway anywhere near the hole equidistant eg on a par 3.

 

[jim8flog]

What about a ball in a penalty area designated as a no play zone?

Do you mean a no play zone located in the OB?

 

[rulefan]

Do you mean a no play zone located in the OB?

I don't think he meant that but

E-9 Defining an Area of Out of Bounds as a No Play Zone
Purpose. Although a player may not play a ball from out of bounds, there may be areas that are out of bounds that the Committee may wish to designate as no play zones, for example, to stop players from damaging anything growing in that area when it interferes with the play of a ball on the course. In this case, a player must take free relief if the player's ball is on the course but his or her area of intended stance is in the no play zone which is out of bounds or if his or her swing touches something that is in the no play zone.
Model Local Rule E-9
"The [identify the area out of bounds that is to be treated as a no play zone] is a no play zone and the player must take free relief under Rule 16.1f(2) if his or her ball is on the course and anything in the no play zone interferes with the player's area of intended stance or swing. The player must not play the ball as it lies.
Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a."

 

[rulefan]

What happens with this rule when there is no fairway anywhere near the hole equidistant eg on a par 3.

Don't try to use the LR. That's why it may be used selectively.

 

[2blue]

I measured the gap between fairway and oob on one of our holes we are considering introducing it on, 43yds at widest point!

Yeah.... we have a one like that on a righthand dog-leg... relief would be some 40 or so yards to the side ..... 20 yards of them trees before another 20 to reach the fairway. Hence I think we should not be applying the LR to all of the course. We have one hole where it would benefit greatly but how will it be proposed to make players 'clearly' aware of holes where the rule is being applied?? Maybe best done by notices on the relevant tee/tees. More immediate than having to refer to the back of the card. Has anyone thought about this??

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Rather than starting a new thread, but leading on from 2blue’s point.
Would we as a course be allowed to introduce some LR’s as at Jan 01st and monitor them for 3 months during the winter and then review them prior to the start of our next sesson with a view to increase or remove them?

 

[clubchamp98]

Strangely, I had an example of this in Tuesdays Trophy event....

Driving off my ball headed down the right hand side, about 3yds off the fairway. There's a couple of small silver birch trees in the area but the ball was expected to pass them by about 50yds.

Long story short - the ball was eventually found 1ft OOB 35 yds right where it had gone back and right off one of the 3" trunks.

With the tee full, and a fair way back up a hill, and my playing partners clearly wishing to get on I took the opportunity to drop a ball in the appropriate place under the new rule to see what it would feel like, rather than walking back having called the next group down and generally messing everyone down.

Now, and this is the relevant part of my story as a response to your post, did I gain an advantage over reloading? Absolutely not! I had lost at least 50yds on even a poor drive leaving me 190yds instead of 140 (or possibly less - we all know how easy the second attempt is!). I make 4 on that hole more often than not, and could have made a point (it's a stroke hole) relatively easily from 3 off the tee but much less easily under the new rule.

Accept that it's a single example but I would be an idiot invoking it rather than an idiot not to invoke it here!

You could play five balls of the tee as you are under pressure.
This rule takes that out of the equation , imo that’s wrong.

If you had NOT found your ball you would be dropping 35yds further up as this is where you “thought” it was (guessing)
Nobody guesses where the tee is if you need to go back or hit provisional.
No rule will please everyone and it’s up for debate I just don’t like it.

 

[clubchamp98]

Is it a 400 year old principle or just a 400 year old habit?

Our difference is largely that I don't see hitting a ball out of bounds as different in principle from putting one in a lake, losing one in impenatrable undergrowth or GUR etc. I do feel that you, with the help of history, are inflating putting a ball off the course into something it doesn't need to be. When I slice one off the course, it is not a sacrilegious outrage; it's just a bad shot like any other and I pay a price for being allowed to get on with my game.

I'm not, for the ordinary club golfer, keen on the notion that we are morally improved by having to suffer the nerve-wracking process of playing a provisional or worse a provisional for that provisional - and I've heard that implied. I've had to suffer for 60 years from playing provisionals and I don't see why golfers should get it easy nowadays. But I exaggerate. The elite golfer appears to deal with provisional ball well - presumably because they have a confidence denied to the likes of me. I'll ask the question again. Would you not agree that this local rule will make the game more enjoyable for many?

I think what is irking most against this is the “drop on the fairway”
If it was changed to two club length from the boundary that would be better , you may still be in the trees or heavy rough !!!
But allowing drop on fairway is to easy imo.
If you hit 3 off the tee you may NOT hit the fairway most of the time.

In matchplay imagine giving two shots on a hole , he hits out of bounds but is on the fairway for three ,you may lose the hole because you missed the fairway by a yard and in heavy rough ,that’s just not right!.

 

[clubchamp98]

What is different between a ball not found, an OOB ball and one in a WH?

Well you can’t just drop on the fairway from a WH it’s limited to a lesser choice.

 

[2blue]

Rather than starting a new thread, but leading on from 2blue’s point.
Would we as a course be allowed to introduce some LR’s as at Jan 01st and monitor them for 3 months during the winter and then review them prior to the start of our next sesson with a view to increase or remove them?

We're running a trial in Nov when Q Comps are finished

 

[Colin L]

In matchplay imagine giving two shots on a hole , he hits out of bounds but is on the fairway for three ,you may lose the hole because you missed the fairway by a yard and in heavy rough ,that’s just not right!.

It doesn't make sense to compare two particular shots like that. You should look at it over a round - same rules for both players. That's right!

But if you insist, you have both played poor shots and as you lie, he has copped 2 penalty strokes and is then playing his 4th. You have copped a lie in heavy rough and are then playing your 2nd.

 

[Colin L]

What about a ball in a penalty area designated as a no play zone?

It's kind of some of you to try to work out what I meant. When you find out, please tell me because I'm blowed if I know.

 

[clubchamp98]

It doesn't make sense to compare two particular shots like that. You should look at it over a round - same rules for both players. That's right!

But if you insist, you have both played poor shots and as you lie, he has copped 2 penalty strokes and is then playing his 4th. You have copped a lie in heavy rough and are then playing your 2nd.

Yes it dosnt make sense , but with his shots he’s lying even with you
but at the end of the day it’s just my opinion .
There’s to much guess work everyone knows where the tee is you don’t have to guess.

If it was NPR from boundary fence then fair enough but who came up with “drop it on the fairway “even if you missed by 50yds.
You can’t drop on the fairway from a water hazard .