New Labour Leader
- Thread starter Doon frae Troon
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Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
If you want to compare the referendum with the GE and use the GE result as a validation or otherwise of the referendum result - then fine - but it is then fair to note that more folks voted for parties other than the Tories, than voted for the Tories...and only the Tories and TBP were unconditional about leaving.
Taz
Journeyman Pro
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Anyway. I'd return to voting Labour were Keir Starmer leader. Whether he'd still be there come next GE only time will tell. But I think in the coming few years KS will be able to put and keep focus on Johnson and his Brexit and GE promises - even when the Right Wing Press and the Tories will be whanging on about his role in a debate and process now done and dusted. They can do that. What I think will matter to the electorate will be Tories delivering on their promises under intense scrutiny by the Opposition parties, and the Labour Party once more becoming a credible party of government - and trusted in that their policies aren't just pie-in-the-sky socialism.
Grant85
Head Pro
A few comments... the Corbyn brand and manifesto seemed to work just about ok in 2017 in that they got a huge vote share and stopped a Tory majority. Obviously it wasn't enough on the day, but what changed so dramatically in 2.5 years.
Personally think it was death by 1,000 cuts;
* New Tory leader - ok Boris isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he crucially wasn't Theresa May and human nature is for them to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Comparison to Corbyn who was a bit of a busted flush and clearly didn't inspire people like he did in 2017.
* Brexit - no denying that a sizeable minority of people voted for Boris because they either wanted Brexit to happen asap or they accepted that Brexit should happen and another hung parliament / possible referendum wasn't going to end this any time soon.
* Antisemitism - this has been a catastrophic mismanagement for Corbyn that only got worse. I remember when it 1st started and expected it to be a 2 minute story, where he is able to do a series of interviews and shut it down. But years later and he still hadn't managed this and the more times people hear something, the more it sticks. I personally do not believe Corbyn is anti-semitic, but he is certainly pro-Palestine and if not anti-Isreal, then anti-Isreal having the settlement they currently enjoy. Also a lot of the supporters are anti-semitic and no doubt take a harder, more vocal line that Corbyn has recently.
* Left wing agenda. Ultimately there were too many people with decent jobs and comfortable lives that felt if there was just a chance that would be put at risk, they didn't want to sign up for it. Whether these people voted Tory, Lib Dem or stayed at home... it obviously didn't help to build the coalition of working class and middle class people that any party needs to form a majority.
That said, if you take out the 1st 3 bullet points, then possible that someone could get a Labour victory over the line in 4 years (like JC almost did in 2017). But it's going to be tough and to give Labour the best chance they need someone with a more moderate platform and wider appeal. I'd say Kier Starmer is the man the Tories fear the most and who they should go with.
Personally think it was death by 1,000 cuts;
* New Tory leader - ok Boris isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he crucially wasn't Theresa May and human nature is for them to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Comparison to Corbyn who was a bit of a busted flush and clearly didn't inspire people like he did in 2017.
* Brexit - no denying that a sizeable minority of people voted for Boris because they either wanted Brexit to happen asap or they accepted that Brexit should happen and another hung parliament / possible referendum wasn't going to end this any time soon.
* Antisemitism - this has been a catastrophic mismanagement for Corbyn that only got worse. I remember when it 1st started and expected it to be a 2 minute story, where he is able to do a series of interviews and shut it down. But years later and he still hadn't managed this and the more times people hear something, the more it sticks. I personally do not believe Corbyn is anti-semitic, but he is certainly pro-Palestine and if not anti-Isreal, then anti-Isreal having the settlement they currently enjoy. Also a lot of the supporters are anti-semitic and no doubt take a harder, more vocal line that Corbyn has recently.
* Left wing agenda. Ultimately there were too many people with decent jobs and comfortable lives that felt if there was just a chance that would be put at risk, they didn't want to sign up for it. Whether these people voted Tory, Lib Dem or stayed at home... it obviously didn't help to build the coalition of working class and middle class people that any party needs to form a majority.
That said, if you take out the 1st 3 bullet points, then possible that someone could get a Labour victory over the line in 4 years (like JC almost did in 2017). But it's going to be tough and to give Labour the best chance they need someone with a more moderate platform and wider appeal. I'd say Kier Starmer is the man the Tories fear the most and who they should go with.
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
that as always been the case though.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Spin.
The vote was a national one not regional, the UK voted in favour of Brexit and as Scotland and Northern Ireland are members of the uk that included them. All this talk of Scotland having a mandate to stay is just propaganda from the Nationalists.
How on earth you can say it wasn't a popular vote in England and Wales is just more distortion of the truth, the majority voted for it and in large numbers.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
I agree with much of this, however.
In your first bullet point don't you mean ' a sizable majority'
In your third bullet point you don't mention the large numbers of traditional working class labour voters who felt they couldn't vote for Corbyn as they didn't want him as Prime Minister and we're fatigued by Labours non descript stance on Brexit.
I also have to disagree with your faith in Starmer as a suitable leader. He was one of the main supporters of a second referendum which was a very unpopular policy with labour voters, he was also one of the leading labour politicians who could not explain in simple terms where his party stood with Brexit. He comes over as a typical fluffy civil servant who should be shuffling paperwork in Brussels and not someone who could drag labour back into a place where they become a force to reckon with. Although saying that I cannot see anyone else in the party having the attributes to do it either.
drdel
Tour Rookie
The Tories must be dancing for joy at the possibility R Long Bailey wins but it wouldn't make for good Government of the UK.
MegaSteve
Tour Winner
Going to suggest after a few years of Boris (particularly if he chooses to follow advice from JR-M) his new 'friends' will realise the enormous mistake they have made... Can see them returning to Labour, in droves, irrespective of who the leader is...
Ye Olde Boomer
Well-known member
Again, I don't know enough about what being in the EU entails to have an opinion on your brexit.
What I do assume is that if Britain leaves the continent, it's stuck relying on a closer relationship with us.
To the extent that we're in total chaos with no relief in sight, I can't image how that would be good for you.
There are only three good things about America.
ONE: We have great food and it's relatively cheap vis a vis the rest of the world. The food, our dog, and our kids are all that I miss when we're away.
TWO: Our gasoline is cheaper than anywhere else.
THREE: we have baseball and our football instead of cricket and your football.
Other than that, Europe (and the British Isles) has it all over us. We're more socially regressive than Pre-WWII Europe.
What I do assume is that if Britain leaves the continent, it's stuck relying on a closer relationship with us.
To the extent that we're in total chaos with no relief in sight, I can't image how that would be good for you.
There are only three good things about America.
ONE: We have great food and it's relatively cheap vis a vis the rest of the world. The food, our dog, and our kids are all that I miss when we're away.
TWO: Our gasoline is cheaper than anywhere else.
THREE: we have baseball and our football instead of cricket and your football.
Other than that, Europe (and the British Isles) has it all over us. We're more socially regressive than Pre-WWII Europe.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
I think you'll find that Britain has no intention of leaving the continent of Europe. Don't make the common mistake that the EU and Europe are the same thing. There are countries in Europe who have no intention of being a member of the EU.
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
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- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
How can we leave a continent? Plate tectonics moves far too slowly for that.
As regards rejecting increasing Federalism, we've had relations with continental Europe for thousands of years, they won't just stop if we are not in the EU. Especially as they are so dependent on selling us stuff....and we rather like buying German cars and French Vine!
Not sure why you need to offshore your government to trade or travel
I assume you are extolling your self loathing of your country in this particular thread as Corbyn is famous for his hatred of this country ... sadly his successor will almost certainly be similar.
Ye Olde Boomer
Well-known member
I assume you are extolling your self loathing of your country in this particular thread as Corbyn is famous for his hatred of this country ... sadly his successor will almost certainly be similar.
Self loathing? Actually, there are things that I genuinely love about my country. Between two great oceans, it's one of the most magnificent tracts of real estate in the world. What we're doing with it , however, is not something about which it's easy to be proud. Sometimes I feel closer to my Italian ethnicty than I do to my American nationality, and except for shoes, sunglasses, and Ferraris, there's no reason for that. Even our Italian food is better than theirs.
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
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- Messages
- 14,943
- Location
- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
That's fair enough, and I always enjoy discussing non US affairs with Americans.
Was in San Francisco a few years back and folk were talking about Mugabe.
After several moments someone apologised and asked where that was!
(True story...wish it wasn't)
Was in San Francisco a few years back and folk were talking about Mugabe.
After several moments someone apologised and asked where that was!
(True story...wish it wasn't)
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Stopping membership of the EU doesn't mean we will stop trading with Europiean countries, as a matter of fact its very much to their advantage as we buy much more from them than we sell.
Of course we want to do more trade with the USA and other countries around the world and on better terms with lower tariffs.
Ye Olde Boomer
Well-known member
I wouldn't even think to doubt that.
By the way, you don't use the letter "z" as much as we do.
Taz
Journeyman Pro
Barry Gardiner 
Has he got fed up flogging cillit bang? ?
