New Bunker Rule

[FairwayDodger]

Seems to be the day for rules questions.

Under the new rule you can rake a bunker at any time as long as that is to care for the condition not to improve your lie etc.

Imagine this situation....

I'm in casual water in a bunker so I'm going to take a drop. The part of the bunker where I'll drop is covered in footprints from some selfish sod earlier, or perhaps that part of the bunker was previously underwater and the sand is solid. Can I rake the bunker and drop in the area I've just raked?

OK, I'd be doing that to give myself the best possible lie after I drop but since I haven't actually dropped yet.....

 

[bobmac]

I would say sorry, not allowed.
You can rake the bunker but only to keep it tidy, not to improve the lie of your next stroke

 

[FairwayDodger]

I would say sorry, not allowed.
You can rake the bunker but only to keep it tidy, not to improve the lie of your next stroke

My thought was that I'm hardly improving my lie if my ball isn't there yet.. I tend to agree with you though, against the spirit if (possibly) not the letter of the rule.

 

[Region3]

Admittedly not a bunker, but I remember a pro got a penalty last year for kicking down a divot he'd just made and the ball rolled back down the hill to where he'd just played from. Got a penalty for potentially improving his lie or something like that.

 

[craig_chesterfield]

if it was the only area you could drop, i would say you could do so!

 

[MashieNiblick]

I would say sorry, not allowed.
You can rake the bunker but only to keep it tidy, not to improve the lie of your next stroke

My thought was that I'm hardly improving my lie if my ball isn't there yet.. I tend to agree with you though, against the spirit if (possibly) not the letter of the rule.

Got to agree with Bob (as usual).

As Bob says you would be improving your lie for your next stroke which is specifically prohibited:

13-4 - Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

Exceptions:
1...
2. At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazard provided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to the next stroke. If a ball played from a hazard is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

Rule 13 -2 prohibits improving the area in which you are going to drop or place a ball by doing any of the folowing

• pressing a club on the ground,
• moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
• creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
• removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
• removing dew, frost or water.

So I reckon that's got it covered.

 

[FairwayDodger]

ater.
So I reckon that's got it covered.

I reckon so! :thup:

 

[pbrown7582]

Admittedly not a bunker, but I remember a pro got a penalty last year for kicking down a divot he'd just made and the ball rolled back down the hill to where he'd just played from. Got a penalty for potentially improving his lie or something like that.

This was Villegas and also resulted in a dq.

Can't see how your not improving your lie when it is the only section of unwaterlogged bunker and where you intend to drop. So I would say not allowed.

 

[chrisd]

I think that one of the reason for the new rule is that some courses have huge bunkers like the 5th at Chart Hills which runs almost the length of the par 5. You could be in the bunker for several shots over a 200 yard length and without the new rule you would have to walk back and rake them all after finally getting out!

 

[MashieNiblick]

I think that one of the reason for the new rule is that some courses have huge bunkers like the 5th at Chart Hills which runs almost the length of the par 5. You could be in the bunker for several shots over a 200 yard length and without the new rule you would have to walk back and rake them all after finally getting out!

Chris, you could previously rake the bunker after playing from it even if your ball stayed in it as long as you didn't improve your lie, stance etc for next shot. The Rule change this year allows you to rake before you have played.

"Rule 13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions
Exception 2 to Rule 13-4 is amended to permit a player to smooth sand or soil in a hazard at any time, including before playing from that hazard, provided it is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and Rule 13-2 is not breached."

You are right of course that it is good for those big bunkers. Now if, as you walk towards your ball, you see that some eejit has left a big gouge and footprints in the sand, you can rake it before going on to play your shot. Previously you couldn't. You either had to walk back after playing or you left it.

 

[duncan mackie]

as has been pointed out the answer is no.

basically, in such situations you can do what you would have been permitted to do before you drop, but you can't do what you wouldn't have been permitted to do.

examples (living dangerously and typing carefully after my last hasty debacle)

1. ttg you could remove loose impediments before dropping the ball. you would have been permitted to remove them even if the ball was there - the penalty issue would only be causing the ball to move when doing so.
2. in a bunker you couldn't remove a tree branch before dropping a ball; you would be penalised for doing so if the ball was there already so it's a no no.
3. (slightly more complicated but the principle is obvious). You are going to drop and think the ball may roll down a slope a bit, but not enough that you would have to re-drop. Where you think it might stop there is an overhanging tree that would impeed your swing. You cannot bend back or snap off a branch before dropping the ball.
The rule to note is 1-2 : A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole. There is the obvious exception to this rule regarding specific acts permitted by other rules!

 

[Foxholer]

And here's the R&A/USGA explanation. http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Ball-in-Hazard.aspx

If you are raking the bunker to test or improve the lie for your next shot , it is a penalty.

 

[FairwayDodger]

As a postscript to this..... mea culpa!

In our comp yesterday I proved that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and did exactly this, honestly believing it was OK.

Anyway, got home and had doubts hence hasty reading and this thread.

Have notified the club and been DQ'd. Conscience is clear though - well worth it.

 

[duncan mackie]

As a postscript to this..... mea culpa!

In our comp yesterday I proved that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and did exactly this, honestly believing it was OK.

Anyway, got home and had doubts hence hasty reading and this thread.

Have notified the club and been DQ'd. Conscience is clear though - well worth it.

as long as the competition hadn't been closed before you became aware of the penalty that's fine, and well done. the relevant timeline is your knowledge re the penalty, and therefore the DQ penalty for signing for a wrong score, and the competition closing.

if it had, then they cannot modify the results on the basis of what you have said here. at our club 'that evening' would normally be too late!