My Swing Speed Journey

[Golf is fun]

Of course you need some strength to hit the ball but it's not the prime factor in distance. Strength and weight create the initial momentum to allow the arms and wrists to freewheel but only to a certain degree. I asked the question whether the best golfers at your club are all pumped up beefcakes?
What comment do you have for the video I posted, do you disagree with the results this guy achieves.

If strength is not the prime factor, what do you suppose is the reason for the clear difference in speed and distance between male and female golfers?

What has being the best golfer at my club or being a beefcake got to do with anything? A sample size of a few people is pretty meaningless, how do we know the best golfer at my club wouldn't become better if they got stronger? Better to look at the bigger group of elite players and see what commonalities they have, one of which is even the "short hitters" hit it far.

I disagree that speed is effortless. I disagree that speed comes from a light grip pressure, it may feel light to elite players but that's because they have a strong grip (literally not in golf terminology), and so what is light to them is a force than the average person might apply as a max. It's basic physics, to get speed you must accelerate the club, to accelerate the club you must apply force to it, the bigger the force the greater the acceleration.

Edit - some of the data from the sensorgrips study that backs up my point above. Note the pressure is measured in percentage, so no absolute amounts are there, but relative to their max pros never grip at less than about 4/10, never below 5/10 after reaching the top of the backswing, and once into the downswing this pretty much increases to impact peaking at around 8/10. Notice the only groups to reduce pressure into impact are high handicappers and slicers.

 

[Orikoru]

It's a common misconception that distance and accuracy are mutually exclusive. Firstly to hit the ball far you generally have to find the sweet spot to maximise ball speed from the given clubhead speed. Secondly a fast swing doesn't mean a wild swing, theoretically assuming a swing is somewhat sound it should be the opposite - is a bike more stable when you ride at 0.5mph or 20mph? Is a gyroscope more stable when it spins fast or slow?

Now longer hitters do have a greater dispersion, but that's just the nature of the beast, 1 degree off will be less dispersion at 200 yards than it will at 350 yards, and so good golf does have a point where trading speed for dispersion is worthwhile, but most average club golfers won't be at this point. In fact the typical blub player could do with gaining both speed and accuracy, not trading one for the other.

Regarding beefcakes, although strength and size are often correlated, they don't have to be. If the secret to clubhead speed is through technique and being relaxed and flexible rather than strength why don't women hit the ball further than men? Women typically have better mobility but worse strength, and at the elite level some even have arguably technically the best swings. Surely they should be dominating long drive and playing off the longest tees?

This is probably the key thing we have to remember if we're trying to add speed though. Myself for example, if I wanted to hit it further, my brain automatically lengthens my backswing, because it thinks that is the way to get faster - and it probably is, in a way, but at the same time it's going to cause me to swing over the top and slice the bejesus out of the ball. So really I'd have to focus on swinging the exact same swing but with a quicker movement, effectively. That's the balancing act.

I think the video SocketRocket posted was a nice watch, I think it sort of shows you how the likes of Couples and Els generated speed in their day despite their swings looking relaxed and smooth. But there is more than one way to swing a cat (or to swing a clubhead fast), just like so many things in golf.

 

[Golf is fun]

This is probably the key thing we have to remember if we're trying to add speed though. Myself for example, if I wanted to hit it further, my brain automatically lengthens my backswing, because it thinks that is the way to get faster - and it probably is, in a way, but at the same time it's going to cause me to swing over the top and slice the bejesus out of the ball. So really I'd have to focus on swinging the exact same swing but with a quicker movement, effectively. That's the balancing act.

I think the video SocketRocket posted was a nice watch, I think it sort of shows you how the likes of Couples and Els generated speed in their day despite their swings looking relaxed and smooth. But there is more than one way to swing a cat (or to swing a clubhead fast), just like so many things in golf.

The problem is looking smooth and being smooth are not the same thing.

Really good examples of this are 100m sprinters and boxers. They look smooth and relaxed when sprinting fast of throwing a punch, do you think it's because they are putting in a 2/10 effort, or because they have no wasted motion and are actually putting in maximum effort?

Look how smooth that effort is, clearly he's only giving it 2/10 to stay relaxed.

 

[Orikoru]

The problem is looking smooth and being smooth are not the same thing.

Really good examples of this are 100m sprinters and boxers. They look smooth and relaxed when sprinting fast of throwing a punch, do you think it's because they are putting in a 2/10 effort, or because they have no wasted motion and are actually putting in maximum effort?

Look how smooth that effort is, clearly he's only giving it 2/10 to stay relaxed.

I don't think lifting 246kg and swinging a golf club that weighs less than 300 grams are all that similar if I'm honest. No one out there is claiming you can lift 246kg with 2/10 effort.

I do agree with you that the pros grip pressure is harder than a lot of people think, I even saw a video on that somewhere recently, I can't recall where though. About how the old 'tube of toothpaste' thing is a myth. But that wasn't the only thing in that video SocketRocket posted. I was just saying it has some merit, although it's only going to get you so far.

 

[Golf is fun]

I don't think lifting 246kg and swinging a golf club that weighs less than 300 grams are all that similar if I'm honest. No one out there is claiming you can lift 246kg with 2/10 effort.

I do agree with you that the pros grip pressure is harder than a lot of people think, I even saw a video on that somewhere recently, I can't recall where though. About how the old 'tube of toothpaste' thing is a myth. But that wasn't the only thing in that video SocketRocket posted. I was just saying it has some merit, although it's only going to get you so far.

The point is the comparison of how smooth it looks, if you couldn't see the weight and didn't know how heavy it was, it looks pretty effortless, despite not being so.

 

[hambugerpete]

This is probably the key thing we have to remember if we're trying to add speed though. Myself for example, if I wanted to hit it further, my brain automatically lengthens my backswing, because it thinks that is the way to get faster - and it probably is, in a way, but at the same time it's going to cause me to swing over the top and slice the bejesus out of the ball. So really I'd have to focus on swinging the exact same swing but with a quicker movement, effectively. That's the balancing act.

I think the video SocketRocket posted was a nice watch, I think it sort of shows you how the likes of Couples and Els generated speed in their day despite their swings looking relaxed and smooth. But there is more than one way to swing a cat (or to swing a clubhead fast), just like so many things in golf.

Out on the course I'm not trying to hit it harder or further , thats the point. I'm doing the training with the belief it will bring my natural baseline up.

 

[SocketRocket]

If strength is not the prime factor, what do you suppose is the reason for the clear difference in speed and distance between male and female golfers?

What has being the best golfer at my club or being a beefcake got to do with anything? A sample size of a few people is pretty meaningless, how do we know the best golfer at my club wouldn't become better if they got stronger? Better to look at the bigger group of elite players and see what commonalities they have, one of which is even the "short hitters" hit it far.

I disagree that speed is effortless. I disagree that speed comes from a light grip pressure, it may feel light to elite players but that's because they have a strong grip (literally not in golf terminology), and so what is light to them is a force than the average person might apply as a max. It's basic physics, to get speed you must accelerate the club, to accelerate the club you must apply force to it, the bigger the force the greater the acceleration.

Edit - some of the data from the sensorgrips study that backs up my point above. Note the pressure is measured in percentage, so no absolute amounts are there, but relative to their max pros never grip at less than about 4/10, never below 5/10 after reaching the top of the backswing, and once into the downswing this pretty much increases to impact peaking at around 8/10. Notice the only groups to reduce pressure into impact are high handicappers and slicers.

View attachment 57274

If the grip on the club is very strong it will inhibit the ability to make a good release, trying to muscle the club through impact is counter intuitive and just doesn't work.
Throwing a ball, a frisbee, a javelin, hitting with a tennis or badminton racket effectively is very dependent on the wrists. In golf the supination of the wrists creates tremendous clubhead speed, the rotation of the body in the downswing does create the core rotation that allows the arms then wrists to create a suitable throwing action through impact.
The guy in the video I posted isn't a beefcake by any stretch but if you follow some of his videos you will see him achieving over 200 yards carry with his seven iron, he isn't going to do that by muscling the club.
It's true that the grip pressure will naturally increase at the bottom of the swing but the wrists and arms should still be loose otherwise the result will be powerless effort as to effortless power. If you look carefully at tour players they are very good at this concept, none of them create prestigious distance without a good release of the club.

Regarding the differences with driving distances between Men and LPGA golfers. The top level Women now are hitting around 300 yards which is further than some men. I have explained that the momentum of the body in the downswing allow the arms and wrists to be released creating a throwing motion through impact, you can't simply make a swing only with your arms and wrists, men tend to be taller, heavier with longer arms than women, this gives them an advantage in creating the momentum that allows the arms and wrists to create the required throwing motion that creates good clubhead speed.

 

[VVega]

TPI talking about swinging athletically vs “taking a bit off” for better results.

 

[hambugerpete]

If the grip on the club is very strong it will inhibit the ability to make a good release, trying to muscle the club through impact is counter intuitive and just doesn't work.
Throwing a ball, a frisbee, a javelin, hitting with a tennis or badminton racket effectively is very dependent on the wrists. In golf the supination of the wrists creates tremendous clubhead speed, the rotation of the body in the downswing does create the core rotation that allows the arms then wrists to create a suitable throwing action through impact.
The guy in the video I posted isn't a beefcake by any stretch but if you follow some of his videos you will see him achieving over 200 yards carry with his seven iron, he isn't going to do that by muscling the club.
It's true that the grip pressure will naturally increase at the bottom of the swing but the wrists and arms should still be loose otherwise the result will be powerless effort as to effortless power. If you look carefully at tour players they are very good at this concept, none of them create prestigious distance without a good release of the club.

Regarding the differences with driving distances between Men and LPGA golfers. The top level Women now are hitting around 300 yards which is further than some men. I have explained that the momentum of the body in the downswing allow the arms and wrists to be released creating a throwing motion through impact, you can't simply make a swing only with your arms and wrists, men tend to be taller, heavier with longer arms than women, this gives them an advantage in creating the momentum that allows the arms and wrists to create the required throwing motion that creates good clubhead speed.

I don't even know what the point is you're trying to make.

 

[pendodave]

Apologies if it's already covered above, but I listened to a pod recently (can't remember which, so no link) in which the matter of strength and conditioning for distance was discussed.
My takeaway was, that it is largely in its contributing to deceleration, rather than "muscling" the ball. The rapid and stable showing down of the body allowing the kinetic energy to be transferred into the club head.
An analogy used was that it was no use having a powerful engine in a car without having equally powerful brakes.
The implication was that many golfers training for speed don't really consider this, and consequently don't achieve playable results.

 

[SocketRocket]

I don't even know what the point is you're trying to make.

Never mind.

 

[Golf is fun]

If the grip on the club is very strong it will inhibit the ability to make a good release, trying to muscle the club through impact is counter intuitive and just doesn't work.
Throwing a ball, a frisbee, a javelin, hitting with a tennis or badminton racket effectively is very dependent on the wrists. In golf the supination of the wrists creates tremendous clubhead speed, the rotation of the body in the downswing does create the core rotation that allows the arms then wrists to create a suitable throwing action through impact.
The guy in the video I posted isn't a beefcake by any stretch but if you follow some of his videos you will see him achieving over 200 yards carry with his seven iron, he isn't going to do that by muscling the club.
It's true that the grip pressure will naturally increase at the bottom of the swing but the wrists and arms should still be loose otherwise the result will be powerless effort as to effortless power. If you look carefully at tour players they are very good at this concept, none of them create prestigious distance without a good release of the club.

Regarding the differences with driving distances between Men and LPGA golfers. The top level Women now are hitting around 300 yards which is further than some men. I have explained that the momentum of the body in the downswing allow the arms and wrists to be released creating a throwing motion through impact, you can't simply make a swing only with your arms and wrists, men tend to be taller, heavier with longer arms than women, this gives them an advantage in creating the momentum that allows the arms and wrists to create the required throwing motion that creates good clubhead speed.

You're getting very close to the answer, imagine you and I both grip the club with an equally relaxed grip, lets say 5/10. However my 5/10 is measured at 65kg on a dynanometer and yours is 50kg, because I am stronger I can both apply more force and be more relaxed at the same time.

I'm still not sure what being a beefcake has to do with anything, but you and the guy in the video are confusing the term "muscling the club" with bad technique. It's not the applying force or using muscle that is bad it's that particular motion he is making.

Some women can hit it nearly 300 yards - would these be the stronger women by chance?
Nelly is way taller and has longer limbs than Rory, why doesn't she hit it further than him?

 

[hambugerpete]

Never mind.

 

[Orikoru]

Apologies if it's already covered above, but I listened to a pod recently (can't remember which, so no link) in which the matter of strength and conditioning for distance was discussed.
My takeaway was, that it is largely in its contributing to deceleration, rather than "muscling" the ball. The rapid and stable showing down of the body allowing the kinetic energy to be transferred into the club head.
An analogy used was that it was no use having a powerful engine in a car without having equally powerful brakes.
The implication was that many golfers training for speed don't really consider this, and consequently don't achieve playable results.

I thought deceleration was a bad thing?? I can't keep up.

What you've said there was why Bryson bulked up wasn't it? I think he said the extra muscle wasn't so much to generate the speed, it was so he could handle the speed he was already generating. Something like that anyway. Obviously he's toned it down a tad now so perhaps he went a bit beyond what was necessary at first.

 

[Golf is fun]

I thought deceleration was a bad thing?? I can't keep up.

What you've said there was why Bryson bulked up wasn't it? I think he said the extra muscle wasn't so much to generate the speed, it was so he could handle the speed he was already generating. Something like that anyway. Obviously he's toned it down a tad now so perhaps he went a bit beyond what was necessary at first.

So keep in mind you don't want to try to do this consciously, but to generate clubhead speed, you need to accelerate body segments fast and then rapid decelerate them, that's how you transfer the most force and speed to the next body part.
In a golf swing this is most easily seen in the last segment to do this - the release of the club, the hands go from moving fast to slowing down, which lets the clubhead accelerate rapidly and reach a high speed.

You actually want your hands to be moving fastest about 50-30cm (along the swing path) before impact, and by impact you want them to have slowed a lot, in elite players this is generally by 30-60%. That is if they had a peak hand speed of 20mph, you'd expect to it to be 14-8mph at impact, typically the lower it is the faster the clubhead. So to do this you need both strength to accelerate to a high speed and the ability to then slow that down quickly to transfer it to the club, otherwise it is wasted.

 

[Orikoru]

So keep in mind you don't want to try to do this consciously, but to generate clubhead speed, you need to accelerate body segments fast and then rapid decelerate them, that's how you transfer the most force and speed to the next body part.
In a golf swing this is most easily seen in the last segment to do this - the release of the club, the hands go from moving fast to slowing down, which lets the clubhead accelerate rapidly and reach a high speed.

You actually want your hands to be moving fastest about 50-30cm (along the swing path) before impact, and by impact you want them to have slowed a lot, in elite players this is generally by 30-60%. That is if they had a peak hand speed of 20mph, you'd expect to it to be 14-8mph at impact, typically the lower it is the faster the clubhead. So to do this you need both strength to accelerate to a high speed and the ability to then slow that down quickly to transfer it to the club, otherwise it is wasted.

I was just making a tongue cheek comment, so many times you hear someone say they 'decelerated' when they chunk a chip or a bunker shot. I saw a Paddy Harrington vid about swing speed (I think) where he basically said doing 'Tommy Fleetwood swings' is a good drill, i.e. trying to stop the club after impact. If you look at any of my swing videos you'll see I'm the opposite of that, the club flies right around my back in the follow-through.

Difficult to get the timing right on all that. Just from reading it, I think if I consciously tried to do what you said there I'd up early extending and flipping my wrists at it.

 

[mrio]

What comment do you have for the video I posted, do you disagree with the results this guy achieves.

I recognize your good intentions by posting the video but I think those kind of videos do more harm than good. For a few people the video may help there are a lot that the video will hurt.

Regarding speed, I can do a seemingly effortless swing and reach 100 mph, BUT I can reach 15 mph more with a less smooth looking swing. I can assure you I have not reached that speed by training my “release” or focusing on “looking smooth and effortless”. That is only achievable with hours and hours of (efficient if possible) training and it is very inefficient to think consciously about the release while training speed.

Also, the release showed by that guy is not what we should aim to have. If you want to play great golf with high club head speed you want much less face rotation in your release, but that is a different topic...

 

[pendodave]

I thought deceleration was a bad thing?? I can't keep up.

Haha
The gentleman who posted after me explained it quite well.
I remember going to Walton Heath a few years ago to watch US open qualifying. It was the first time I'd watched really top players at close quarters. The most glaring thing to me was how still the players were at the moment of impact (albeit probably a slight optical illusion) and the very real impression that all of their swing energy was being delivered very efficiently to their club head.

 

[Springveldt]

Apologies if it's already covered above, but I listened to a pod recently (can't remember which, so no link) in which the matter of strength and conditioning for distance was discussed.
My takeaway was, that it is largely in its contributing to deceleration, rather than "muscling" the ball. The rapid and stable showing down of the body allowing the kinetic energy to be transferred into the club head.
An analogy used was that it was no use having a powerful engine in a car without having equally powerful brakes.
The implication was that many golfers training for speed don't really consider this, and consequently don't achieve playable results.

Superspeed used to claim that the nondominant side swings were to help with this, they wanted you to have the strength in the nondominant side to be able to "apply the brakes".

 

[Golf is fun]

Superspeed used to claim that the nondominant side swings were to help with this, they wanted you to have the strength in the nondominant side to be able to "apply the brakes".

That was always their theory. I mentioned in a previous post I don't do the non-dominant side swings and I don't think there is any research that says they are effective or ineffective.

My reasoning is that if you want to improve your ability to decelerate an object you should do it by decelerating an object, not by accelerating an object in the the opposite direction. The sports science behind this is that you have different types of muscle contraction, eccentric (this is when you resist a muscle from lengthening) and concentric (this is when you contract a lengthened or relaxed muscle) a deceleration is an example of eccentric, but swinging the opposite way round would be concentric at the point of the swing you would want to be decelerating if swinging correct handed. It's not to say there is no carryover, a strong muscle is still strong, but better to train for what you are specifically trying to achieve.