Moral Q - work sick leave/holiday

[User62651]

Ok so I have 5 days annual leave left in 2018, booked in for Christmas week. We cannot carry leave forward into 2019 - if you don't use it you lose it effectively.

Have just got notice of surgery I've been waiting a few months for, on 13th December with surgeon saying I have to take at least 3-6 weeks off work, minimum 3 weeks. Going ahead.

Q- if it were you would you move your 5 days remaining leave forward to before the surgery knowing Christmas week is covered as sick leave?

I'm a bit torn on this, feel like I should get my holidays being able bodied and well, not sitting about recovering as the sick leave is legit BUT another side of me thinks it's manipulating my employer for more time away from work when they are paying sick leave (but partially covered by Govt I suspect?).

Fairly sure legally I can take the holiday (some or all of the 5 days) early but should I. Hmmmmm?

Views?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I understand your employer won’t let you carry it over, but are there no special circumstances were they’ll allow it?
If not I’d be sure to take your leave prior to surgery.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

If you were the owner of the company and this related to an employee what would you be thinking then?

I do run a small company and if one of my employees did this, whilst above board, I would think less of them and it would stay with me. In contrast, think of the goodwill you will create by being the good guy.

It depends if you like your job / company really.

 

[Kellfire]

I’d ask to carry it over. It’s extenuating circumstances. If not, I’d try to take it before my operation because it’s earned so should be taken.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I would say if it’s a big company with HR department that can cover that amount of time off, then you should be able to either move your holiday to either before or after your recovery time.
If however it was a small company I would absorb that holiday week into your 6weeks recovery, as that in itself will cause enough of a headache without making it even longer.

 

[bluewolf]

Tough one...

Me personally, I'd leave it. I understand the system and wouldn't argue against anyone doing it, but I'm not sure I'd feel particularly comfortable if I did it myself..

FWIW, I've managed several Departments/Companies and I wouldn't think badly of anyone who did it as it's their right to do so..

 

[HowlingGale]

If you normally work more hours than you're paid for go for it. Bring the leave forward and then take your sick time. If you clock off at 5 every night (or whenever you contracted finish time is) I'd feel a bit uncomfortable taking it.

 

[3offTheTee]

You are unsure whether it is going to be 3 or 6 weeks or perhaps more.

If you are ‘recovered’ after say 4 weeks you could always tag the week on at the end.

Think it also depends on how the company will carry on without you/ size of company/ how easily replaced you will be .

Also if you HAD taken the holiday already there would be nothing to consider

 

[User62651]

Forgot to add that as this year was a 5 year anniversary with work, at start of 2018 they offered me either 5 days extra holiday leave or equivalent remuneration, I opted for the extra leave so I have earned the leave and if I dont use it then I've missed out on both the leave and probably extra ££ too.

Asking to carry oveer the holiday to 2019 or getting the remuneration (if that's possibly still an option) sounds like the best plan. Going off on holiday in advance of surgery doesn't sit well with me or my employer I would imagine.

However no-one plans to go under the knife as a means to get time off either?

 

[Hobbit]

Put your leave in for the run up to your surgery. You can then get the Christmas shopping out of the way. Take your sick leave, post-surgery, over Christmas. Several years ago I had a member of staff in a similar situation to you. I can't quite remember all the ins and outs but our HR dept insisted he took his leave either before his sick leave or after, not instead of. I think he had legal standing to do this, and I think there would have been issues around claiming sickness benefit/reduced stamp whilst on leave rather than on sick leave.

 

[Odvan]

If your company won't allow the five days to be brought forward given the short notice and potential handover period/resource shortage then they should have provision to extend it in to 2019 as a discretionary gesture. They need to make a 'reasonable adjustment' to either request.

A female who has booked 2 weeks off for her holiday then falls preggers - the holidays are tagged on either before or after and don't form part of her maternity leave. It's no different. Not sure why anyone would think less of an employee for this

So if you're off sick, you're off sick. A good HR department would know this. You can't (or shouldn't) in theory, take annual leave, if you've been signed off work.

 

[Hobbit]

If your company won't allow the five days to be brought forward given the short notice and potential handover period/resource shortage then they should have provision to extend it in to 2019 as a discretionary gesture. They need to make a 'reasonable adjustment' to either request.

A female who has booked 2 weeks off for her holiday then falls preggers - the holidays are tagged on either before or after and don't form part of her maternity leave. It's no different. Not sure why anyone would think less of an employee for this

So if you're off sick, you're off sick. A good HR department would know this. You can't (or shouldn't) in theory, take annual leave, if you've been signed off work.

Well said!

Its shortsighted to mess with a person's leave entitlement. Upset them enough and they look for another job. And then the employer has recruitment and training costs if they go. Griping over a few days leave is churlish on the part of the employer.

 

[Tashyboy]

Agree with what LT says and hobbit and a few others. LT mentions that it would stay with him if you tried to pull a fast un. However that works both ways. Ask for a week to be Carried over to next year under mitigating circumsatnces. If they won't, tell them you will have a week off before the op which will leave the company short in December. Tell them you have no other option and don't wanna leave them in the smelly stuff.. If they still don't want to carry the week over, "it stays with you".
Good luck with the op me man.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Agree with what LT says and hobbit and a few others. LT mentions that it would stay with him if you tried to pull a fast un. However that works both ways. Ask for a week to be Carried over to next year under mitigating circumsatnces. If they won't, tell them you will have a week off before the op which will leave the company short in December. Tell them you have no other option and don't wanna leave them in the smelly stuff.. If they still don't want to carry the week over, "it stays with you".
Good luck with the op me man.

Agree with you Tashy. Fairness is a two way process, it works both ways. If one side, employer or employee, tries to get one over the other it causes resentment that often sticks. Take a step back, look at what is fair and reasonable, not necessarily what is right in the book, and make a judgement based on that.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The ECJ has considered and ruled on this

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/sick-leave-european-court-confirms-holiday-can-carried-forward/

 

[bluewolf]

The ECJ has considered and ruled on this

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/sick-leave-european-court-confirms-holiday-can-carried-forward/

Get the hols in before march then 😉

 

[GB72]

Part of it would depend on whether I was receiving full pay for me recovery period. If so then I would probably let is slide. If not, I would ask if I could take the 5 days holiday as part of my recovery period to get full pay rather than statutory sick pay.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Agree with you Tashy. Fairness is a two way process, it works both ways. If one side, employer or employee, tries to get one over the other it causes resentment that often sticks. Take a step back, look at what is fair and reasonable, not necessarily what is right in the book, and make a judgement based on that.

Fair and reasonable is to enjoy his leave, god knows what his recovery could be like.

Never ran me own business so easy one for me

 

[Captainron]

If you were the owner of the company and this related to an employee what would you be thinking then?

I do run a small company and if one of my employees did this, whilst above board, I would think less of them and it would stay with me. In contrast, think of the goodwill you will create by being the good guy.

It depends if you like your job / company really.

I worked for a small family owned company for 2 years and this was how the owner would have thought about it even though it was entirely legit. Staff turnover was massive because of this sort of thinking.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Never ran me own business so easy one for me

It's a different beast when it is your own, particularly if you are a small company. Perhaps a relateable way to look at this is if you see it as the head greenkeeper is in this scenario at your club. Small number of green staff, every absence is keenly felt, a long absence will really hurt. He is entitled to it but if he works the system to maximise his days off rather than working with you to find an amenable answer how would you feel? You sit on your committee, you know the impact. There have been some good compromise suggestions made already, they would seem the best route.

I worked for a small family owned company for 2 years and this was how the owner would have thought about it even though it was entirely legit. Staff turnover was massive because of this sort of thinking.

I stated straight away that this was above aboard, no question. Staff turnover at my place is low, very low. I give lots of leeway, we are very flexible and we do all we can to help employees if they need it. In return I expect staff to play fair by me. Don't forget, if an employee wants to wave a contract about the employer can do the same. Neither wins when that starts to happen.

As I said in my reply to Tashy, it is a two way process. The fact that the OP started this thread suggests he is uncomfortable with the suggestion and wants affirmation. I've given an employers viewpoint, what he does with that is up to him.