Marking The Ball on the Green

[duncan mackie]

In a match yesterday evening - two marking related situations arose.

1) My opponent's ball is on the green - and he marks it. But when he comes to replace it he can't get it to stay put - what to do?

2) We've still got preferred lies local rule in place - mark, lift, clean and place within 6". My ball was on the fringe of green with a fair bit of not well cut pretty hairy grass on my line to the hole. But I was only 3" from lovely lovely - putting surface. So I though - aha - mark ball and place within 6" not nearer the hole on the green - what's not to like?

I now know the answers to both but thought I'd fling them out there on here just to see ...

BTW - I didn't do 2) as I wasn't sure. Always the best thing when you don't know - play as lies even if you subsequently find that you had ignored an advantage.

I'm slightly confused as to what you want - I know the answers too but should I post them or not?

I'll compromise.....

20-3d (i) covers your first question and the specific wording of the LR covering preferred lies covers the second (they can vary!)

 

[rosecott]

In a match yesterday evening - two marking related situations arose.

1) My opponent's ball is on the green - and he marks it. But when he comes to replace it he can't get it to stay put - what to do?

2) We've still got preferred lies local rule in place - mark, lift, clean and place within 6". My ball was on the fringe of green with a fair bit of not well cut pretty hairy grass on my line to the hole. But I was only 3" from lovely lovely - putting surface. So I though - aha - mark ball and place within 6" not nearer the hole on the green - what's not to like?

I now know the answers to both but thought I'd fling them out there on here just to see ...

BTW - I didn't do 2) as I wasn't sure. Always the best thing when you don't know - play as lies even if you subsequently find that you had ignored an advantage.

I'm slightly confused as to what you want - I know the answers too but should I post them or not?

I'll compromise.....

20-3d (i) covers your first question and the specific wording of the LR covering preferred lies covers the second (they can vary!)

SwingsitlikeHogan

Your post clearly did confuse Duncan as he neglected to correct you. The specimen LR and the one approved by CONGU for qualifiers does not allow a ball being placed under Winter Rules to be placed on the green or in a hazard.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm not asking to find out as I did my own research last night when I got home. But when they occurred during my match I didn't know for sure so just posted them as questions to see if others know the rulings.

 

[duncan mackie]

SwingsitlikeHogan

Your post clearly did confuse Duncan as he neglected to correct you. The specimen LR and the one approved by CONGU for qualifiers does not allow a ball being placed under Winter Rules to be placed on the green or in a hazard.

I'm not confused

The wording of the LR for preferred lies can vary, and could be worded (incorrectly) to permit placing anywhere within 6" not nearer the hole.
You are required to act in line with the LR rather than how the rule should be worded.

 

[rosecott]

But my point was that both the R&A specimen rule and the one laid down by CONGU both state that the ball may not be placed in a hazard or on the green. I'm pretty sure SwingsitlikeHogan's club do run handicap qualifiers and would therefore have to comply with CONGU's directive on the wording of the LR.

 

[rulefan]

I'm not confused

The wording of the LR for preferred lies can vary, and could be worded (incorrectly) to permit placing anywhere within 6" not nearer the hole.
You are required to act in line with the LR rather than how the rule should be worded.

The LR may vary but only to restrict the area not to eextend it.
It can only be on a closely mown area TTG but may be resticted to certain holes or part of a hole. It cannot be extended to anywhere other than TTG & closely mown.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't think our LR for preferred lies specifies that the ball can't be placed on the green - but I will check. Hopefully though the LR will be lifted tomorrow as we have had some half decent growth this week - at long last.

 

[duncan mackie]

But my point was that both the R&A specimen rule and the one laid down by CONGU both state that the ball may not be placed in a hazard or on the green. I'm pretty sure SwingsitlikeHogan's club do run handicap qualifiers and would therefore have to comply with CONGU's directive on the wording of the LR.

My point is that
1. What's permitted will be as per the wording of the LR
2. They can vary - even though they shouldn't in this respect
3. You know very well that many many clubs, including respectable ones!, have LRs in place that breach the rules and technically mean that they breach CONGU Q requirements....

I find it rather telling that SwingsitlikeHogan has somehow established the answer to his question without reference to the club's LR for preferred lies!

That our expectations are the same isn't relevant to the derivation of a ruling here.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In fact I just did a search...

On 1) my opponent actually breached the rule on this matter as when replaced at the marked spot on the green the ball rolled forward slightly and towards the hole. I just let him play as it was a matter of an inch at the very most. In fact he should have placed it at the nearest place to the marked spot not nearer the hole that it would remain stationary.

Rather obvious I know but there are other aspects of the rules where you play the ball for where it comes to rest and he wasn't getting any obvious advantage so I though OK. But were that actually allowed under the rules clearly there is a risk of huge advantage as the ball could run down a slope into or dead. And that would be daft and so the rules would prevent that.

I remind myself that when I am uncertain of a ruling I just need to take a little time to think through 'in extermis' scenarios of what you think is OK. In this instance I didn't.

 

[rosecott]

My point is that
1. What's permitted will be as per the wording of the LR
2. They can vary - even though they shouldn't in this respect
3. You know very well that many many clubs, including respectable ones!, have LRs in place that breach the rules and technically mean that they breach CONGU Q requirements....

I find it rather telling that SwingsitlikeHogan has somehow established the answer to his question without reference to the club's LR for preferred lies!

That our expectations are the same isn't relevant to the derivation of a ruling here.

Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm struggling to understand why a club would want to change the recommended Winter Rules LR - in particular to change it to allow placing on the green when the ball lay off the green. After all, you only have to copy and paste to have it done ready to print and post. There's nowt so queer as golf clubs but I will be interested to know the wording of Farnham's Winter Rules.

 

[duncan mackie]

Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm struggling to understand why a club would want to change the recommended Winter Rules LR - in particular to change it to allow placing on the green when the ball lay off the green. After all, you only have to copy and paste to have it done ready to print and post. There's nowt so queer as golf clubs but I will be interested to know the wording of Farnham's Winter Rules.

It's not so much a deliberate changing of the specimen rule as lasyness in most cases. For example "when winter rules are in place a player on an area cut to fairway height or less may lift clean and place his ball within 6" of where it originally lay but not nearer the hole"
Many would say what's wrong with that; partially because they are interpreting it to as saying what they know through practice to be 'normal' rather than what's actually written.

 

[Colin L]

Copying and pasting can be risky, as I have just found out, having done that with the specimen local rule on dropping zones. Our local rule is about GUR where relief is taken with the ball whereas the specimen is based on water hazards where relief is taken with a ball.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

...I will be interested to know the wording of Farnham's Winter Rules.

Our LR states as per the recommended LR - so when replacing after marking ball may not be placed in hazard or on putting green.

Interestingly our Assistant thought that whether the LR was specific in this or not - that Rule 25-1 b(i) Relief from Abnormal Ground Conditions covered the scenario 'The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green'

Is he correct?

 

[rosecott]

Our LR states as per the recommended LR - so when replacing after marking ball may not be placed in hazard or on putting green.

Interestingly our Assistant thought that whether the LR was specific in this or not - that Rule 25-1 b(i) Relief from Abnormal Ground Conditions covered the scenario 'The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green'

Is he correct?

Your Assistant what?

I think he's rather confused. Abnormal Ground Conditions have nothing to do with picking and placing under Winter Rules.

 

[duncan mackie]

Our LR states as per the recommended LR - so when replacing after marking ball may not be placed in hazard or on putting green.

Interestingly our Assistant thought that whether the LR was specific in this or not - that Rule 25-1 b(i) Relief from Abnormal Ground Conditions covered the scenario 'The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green'

Is he correct?

Whilst I can see his logic, in my opinion it's flawed.

If you read around the specimen LR you will find...."Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25 and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.

However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When such conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended: "

or put another way, rule 25 covers a load of stuff but not this

Also, 25 includes 25-1 and 25-2; neither of which include placing the ball or placing it within 6" etc

Finally, the specimen LR is worded in this complete manner for a reason.

edit - Rosecott's beaten me with his more succinct response!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Your Assistant what?

I think he's rather confused. Abnormal Ground Conditions have nothing to do with picking and placing under Winter Rules.

Assistant Pro...

Note - the AP didn't quote 25-1 - that was me finding an example rule that stops me taking relief and placing on the green

The example he gave to support his logic was when taking relief from a sprinkler head in the fringe. Without checking I'm not sure if that is covered by 25-1 but I'm guessing an equivalent 'immovable obstruction' rule covers it similarly. I disagreed (gently) asserting that a LR was self-contained and should not rely on other rules to make clear to the player what to do or what he could not do under the LR. He disagreed. Saying there are rules that would prevent me placing on the green when talking relief under a 'Preferred Lies' LR whatever that LR actually said.

 

[Colin L]

He might as well say that because relief for an unplayable ball (R28) allows you to drop on a putting green, you can also do so for preferred lies.

The point is that you cannot apply one bit of one rule to another just because it's convenient.

 

[rulefan]

Assistant Pro...

Note - the AP didn't quote 25-1 - that was me finding an example rule that stops me taking relief and placing on the green

The example he gave to support his logic was when taking relief from a sprinkler head in the fringe. Without checking I'm not sure if that is covered by 25-1 but I'm guessing an equivalent 'immovable obstruction' rule covers it similarly. I disagreed (gently) asserting that a LR was self-contained and should not rely on other rules to make clear to the player what to do or what he could not do under the LR. He disagreed. Saying there are rules that would prevent me placing on the green when talking relief under a 'Preferred Lies' LR whatever that LR actually said.

The immovable obstruction (rule 24-2) procedure is specifically mentioned in the 'sprinkler-head' local rule.

The 'preferred lie' local rule has its own procedure. There is no reference to the 25-1b procedure at all.

Ask him to show you the rules he talks about in the bold sentence.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The discussion was somewhat academic in so far as our own club PL rule was concerned as it explicitly states that you can't place on the green when taking relief under our LR.

But the discussion developed more into whether a LR should be self-contained and not rely on other rules. I was asserting that if our LR had not excluded placing on the green - then I could have placed on the green. Nothing in the LR to stop me.

AP logic was that there are other rules to do with taking relief that would stop me so I wouldn't have been able to I said that other rules were irrelevant to a LR - the LR is specific to the club and how it wants to word it - it's a local rule after all. I argued that if our local rule had not prohibited placing the ball on the green I could have done so. But I'm not sure on that.

My question @Colin then becomes - does a LR supersede the Rules unless the LR is about something that the Rules specifically cover.

 

[rulefan]

I argued that if our local rule had not prohibited placing the ball on the green I could have done so. But I'm not sure on that.

My question @Colin then becomes - does a LR supersede the Rules unless the LR is about something that the Rules specifically cover.

The Committee cannot permit placing the ball on the green as they may not modify a Local Rule.

LRs are additional to the main Rules. They may supplement them but do not override them (or I can't see any that do).