Managing our 8 to 15 H/Cap League when WHS is introduced

[Swango1980]

Surely if one person's number of shots goes up with the slope then they all do?? What does it matter?

Yes, but there is obviously a limit in the league for a reason (presently). Presumably to stop clubs fielding players with very high handicaps, who may be rapidly improving. For whatever reason, they selected 17 as the limit up to now. So, presumably when WHS comes in, they'll set the limit to whatever they see fit.

 

[2blue]

everyone plays off scratch..... job done

Hahaha.... yeah that already works well for Scratch matches, I've heard.

 

[2blue]

Yeah, as others have said, Handicap Index would be what to use (as it does not change based on the course)
.

But from what I understand it will when based on the slope
EG -
Net Diff of 8 * 113/126 = 7.1 (Our Club)
Net Diff of 8 * 113/142 = 6.4 (Strongest sloped Club)

Or am I on the wrong track all together?? .... wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Swango1980]

But from what I understand it will when based on the slope
EG -
Net Diff of 8 * 113/126 = 7.1 (Our Club)
Net Diff of 8 * 113/142 = 6.4 (Strongest sloped Club)

Or am I on the wrong track all together?? .... wouldn't be the first time.

No you are right. (Except you got the slope and 113 upside down, the harder course should give a higher course handicap, not lower) .

Of course, I'm assuming you are showing course handicap calculations? If you are showing the Index calculations, then yes, the nett diff over cr is multiplied by 113 / slope in each case, then the average of the best 8 calculated. However, your index is still your index regardless of course. If your index was 10, it would be 10 at any course and then the course handicap calculated from there.

So, if your calcs show the index calculation, then in both cases you are saying a player has a nett diff of 8 over, resulting in 7.1 index at your course, but 6.4 if scores were at higher slope course. That's fine. But remember, if this was you and your index was 7.1, it would also be 7.1 at higher sloped course, and your course handicap would then be more there than your course.

 

[Wildboy370]

It would appear a few people are not understanding the original post. As the new system gives you a home course handicap, whatever they call it, but when you go to other courses you then add the slope into the equation to get a playing handicap for that course off what ever Tee you play off. Always white tees for the league matches.
what the original post is referring to is the Friday night league matches which have a home and away match over the season. So if you are playing in the 8 or 15 slot on you home course your fine, but then if the away course is either easier or harder slope then the handicap you will have to use for that match may take you outside the 8 or 15 slot so unavailable to play, so making the team captains job almost impossible to pick the same team week in week out. And as someone has already said they have all on to get a team together as it is due to work and congestion. For one off competition in what ever handicap bracket you are in these are easy as you can work out the slope before entering, but in the Bradford area we have up to six home and away matches per season with a four man team, so becomes a lot harder to work out.

 

[rulefan]

But from what I understand it will when based on the slope
EG -
Net Diff of 8 * 113/126 = 7.1 (Our Club)
Net Diff of 8 * 113/142 = 6.4 (Strongest sloped Club)

Or am I on the wrong track all together?? .... wouldn't be the first time.

It would seem that you are confusing Handicap Index with either Course Handicap and/or Score Differential.

Handicap Index is the base figure which is course independent. It is not used (or relevant when playing).
The Handicap Index is the base figure for calculating the specific Course Handicap for the course and tees you are playing. This calculation takes account of the Course Rating (old SSS) and the Slope. The former tells you how hard the course is for a scratch player and the slope tells you how much more difficult it is for a handicap player.
The formula is CH = HI * (Slope/113). So the higher the slope the more strokes you get over your index.

When you return your score the Score Differential is calculated by comparing your score with the Course Rating after removing the effect of slope by this formula.
Score Differential = (113/Slope) * (Score - Course Rating).

It is this final figure that is used to determine the average of the best 8 differentials out of the last 20 rounds.

 

[Swango1980]

It would appear a few people are not understanding the original post. As the new system gives you a home course handicap, whatever they call it, but when you go to other courses you then add the slope into the equation to get a playing handicap for that course off what ever Tee you play off. Always white tees for the league matches.
what the original post is referring to is the Friday night league matches which have a home and away match over the season. So if you are playing in the 8 or 15 slot on you home course your fine, but then if the away course is either easier or harder slope then the handicap you will have to use for that match may take you outside the 8 or 15 slot so unavailable to play, so making the team captains job almost impossible to pick the same team week in week out. And as someone has already said they have all on to get a team together as it is due to work and congestion. For one off competition in what ever handicap bracket you are in these are easy as you can work out the slope before entering, but in the Bradford area we have up to six home and away matches per season with a four man team, so becomes a lot harder to work out.

I dont think people are confusing original post.

The problem you describe, where a player if available for one match at one course, but not another match at a different slope course, is occurring because you are using Course Handicap.

This is why people suggested using Index. This problem would not arise, as your index is the constant.

 

[rulefan]

It would appear a few people are not understanding the original post. As the new system gives you a home course handicap, whatever they call it, but when you go to other courses you then add the slope into the equation to get a playing handicap for that course off what ever Tee you play off. .

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding. The new system gives you a course independent handicap. It is called the Handicap Index. it not related to any course.
When you play on ANY course your Index is converted to a handicap for the course you are going to play (ie the Course Handicap). That includes the course/tees you normally play.

If you play on your home course white tees, you will have a different course handicap to playing from the yellow tees. This is because the Course Rating and Slope will be different for the two sets of tees.

The course rating at Skipton is 72.2 for the whites and 70.7 for the yellows.
In very simplistic terms would you say a score of 80 gross is better on the whites or the yellows?

 

[rulefan]

It would appear a few people are not understanding the original post. As the new system gives you a home course handicap, whatever they call it, but when you go to other courses you then add the slope into the equation to get a playing handicap for that course off what ever Tee you play off. .

No. Whatever course(s) you have been playing combine to give you a Handicap Index. This completely independent of any course and any tees.
If you play off your yellow tees you will have a different Course Handicap to when you play off your white tees. This is because the Course Rating and Slope are different off the different tees. At Skipton they are 70.7 - 127 and the whites are 72.2 - 135.
Which is the more difficult?
Using the calculations in my earlier post and assuming your Index is 10.3 (as an example), what Course Handicap do you think you would play off when you play from each set of tees?
Clue. They will not be the same

 

[Wildboy370]

I know the handicaps will be different thats the whole idea of the system. So if I have a CH off the whites of 10 and play my home league match in the 10/11 slot Great. Then I go to the away course which has a slope of 120, guess what I have a different handicap for that white tee so maybe different to my 10. Unless I’m wrong again. ?

 

[rulefan]

I know the handicaps will be different thats the whole idea of the system. So if I have a CH off the whites of 10 and play my home league match in the 10/11 slot Great. Then I go to the away course which has a slope of 120, guess what I have a different handicap for that white tee so maybe different to my 10. Unless I’m wrong again. ?

If you have only played off Skipton whites in your last 20 rounds and have a Handicap Index of 10 then next time you play off whites your Course Handicap will be
Index * Slope/113
10.0 * (135/113) = 12
If you play off the yellows instead your Course Handicap will be
10.0 * (127/113) = 11

If you score 85 on the whites your differential will be
(113/Slope) * (Score - Course Rating)
(113/135) * (85 - 72.2) = 11.1
As this will not be in your best 8 scores it will not affect your Index

 

[2blue]

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding. The new system gives you a course independent handicap. It is called the Handicap Index. it not related to any course.

If the calc below is correct then the HI uses the slope of your Home course for it to be determined. OR... have I got that wrong.
If you score 8 over the Course Rating, that would have to be 'de-sloped' to determine your true Score Differential and thereby your Handicap Index using the following formula
SD = (113 / Slope) * (Gross - CR - PCC)
So assuming PCC = 0 and Gross - CR = 8
8 * 113/126 = 7.1 (the easiest rated courses in our 8-15 League)
8 * 113/142 = 6.4 (the hardest rated courses in our 8-15 League)
So a Score Differential of 8 will produce a different HI for members of different Clubs. (I realize that the slope used will reflect the tee played from)
This is later converted into a Playing H/cap for which ever tees you are playing off.
I thought I was close to understanding this, or am I just describing the problem wrongly?

 

[patricks148]

this thread just highlights even further how the new system is far from simple comp to what we have

 

[rulefan]

In fact the player doesn't need to know any of this. It will all be done at the computer sign in or before if it's an organised competition

But have you ever needed to know exactly how CSS is calculated?

 

[rulefan]

If the calc below is correct then the HI uses the slope of your Home course for it to be determined. OR... have I got that wrong.
If you score 8 over the Course Rating, that would have to be 'de-sloped' to determine your true Score Differential and thereby your Handicap Index using the following formula
SD = (113 / Slope) * (Gross - CR - PCC)
So assuming PCC = 0 and Gross - CR = 8
8 * 113/126 = 7.1 (the easiest rated courses in our 8-15 League)
8 * 113/142 = 6.4 (the hardest rated courses in our 8-15 League)
So a Score Differential of 8 will produce a different HI for members of different Clubs. (I realize that the slope used will reflect the tee played from)
This is later converted into a Playing H/cap for which ever tees you are playing off.
I thought I was close to understanding this, or am I just describing the problem wrongly?

Nearly right.
Your HI is determined from the last 20 rounds score differentials from all the courses you have played. Your home course is just another course as far as the system is concerned.
The 7.1 (or 6.4) in your example is just the latest of the last 20 scores. You actual HI is the average value of the best 8 of those scores.

 

[patricks148]

In fact the player doesn't need to know any of this. It will all be done at the computer sign in or before if it's an organised competition

But have you ever needed to know exactly how CSS is calculated?

you don 't need to know what the CSS is to know what your what own handicap though do you?

 

[rulefan]

you don 't need to know what the CSS is to know what your what own handicap though do you?

Indeed. But you don't need to know the WHS calculations to know your handicap. If your Index changes after a comp you will be notified. If you are signing in for a comp or supplementary, the system will tell you your Course Handicap and Playing Handicap (incl 95% adjustment if appropriate). And if your club has the kit, print either a card or label for your card. At any other time just look at an app or any terminal.

 

[patricks148]

Indeed. But you don't need to know the WHS calculations to know your handicap. If your Index changes after a comp you will be notified. If you are signing in for a comp or supplementary, the system will tell you your Course Handicap and Playing Handicap (incl 95% adjustment if appropriate). And if your club has the kit, print either a card or label for your card. At any other time just look at an app or any terminal.

i'm saying its more complicated that what we have now.... a group of us reg play at different course at the moment we have a handicap job done, now with the new WH bits of paper come in to the eq.

if someone asks you your handicap at the moment you can tell them... with the new one its not as simple

 

[rulefan]

i'm saying its more complicated that what we have now.... a group of us reg play at different course at the moment we have a handicap job done, now with the new WH bits of paper come in to the eq.

if someone asks you your handicap at the moment you can tell them... with the new one its not as simple

Why not? Given what I said, what do you have to do to know your handicap. When you go to any course there will be a notice telling you what your course handicap is for each of the tees. Just look for your Index and next to it will be your CH

 

[patricks148]

Why not? Given what I said, what do you have to do to know your handicap. When you go to any course there will be a notice telling you what your course handicap is for each of the tees. Just look for your Index and next to it will be your CH

i know what my handicap is at the moment, if i went and played at another course i would have to look at bits of paper to see what i should play off there