Managing our 8 to 15 H/Cap League when WHS is introduced

[2blue]

We have 11 Clubs in a North Leeds 8 to 15 League.
If your H/cap drops below 8 you can't play
At the other end you're limited to 15
Am wondering if anyone else has this, or similar set ups that will be affected...... Rabbits are likely to have these problems also.
# Players near either end of the limits are likely to find themselves excluded due to their H/cap number not fitting even though their game still fits those numbers as they haven't got either better or worse.
# At the lower end a 6.5 would be playing off 8 when on a course with a slope of 142 or higher.
# Whilst a 15 would be off 18.8 on that same course

Any solutions/suggestions welcome.

 

[cliveb]

Under the new WHS, the HCP index is a better measure of a player's absolute capability than we've had up to now. So I see no reason why leagues based on HCP ranges shouldn't just dictate the HCP index range that's appropriate.

 

[Jimbof]

No real option other than use Handicap Index, otherwise if using course handicap it could become a moveable feast depending on the slope of the course being played. e.g. using Course Handicap, a player with a HI of 8 could become ineligible if playing a course with slope less than 113, or a player of 6 HI could become eligible on courses with a high Slope, but ineligible on courses with a lower slope.

 

[rulefan]

Use the Handicap Index

 

[2blue]

Use the Handicap Index

I agree.
Though it means that to continue to involve a couple of Club's players who have played for years off 8 & 9 H/caps but because their course has a slope of Rating of 71.9 & a white tee of 142 means their HI drops below the low Tigers/Lions limit of 8 to 15.
I guess we may have to consider changing those limits to accommodate WHS's HI's.
I estimate that 6 to 13 should allow access for all players from the various Clubs who have become accustomed to participating over the years.

I guess similar adjustments will be required for Rabbits Groups if life is to continue as before.

 

[Grizzly]

Or do you give players with years of membership an exemption? After all, the chances of someone who has been at 8 for three or four years suddenly becoming four shots a round better in real life are not that great...

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I agree.
Though it means that to continue to involve a couple of Club's players who have played for years off 8 & 9 H/caps but because their course has a slope of Rating of 71.9 & a white tee of 142 means their HI drops below the low Tigers/Lions limit of 8 to 15.
I guess we may have to consider changing those limits to accommodate WHS's HI's.
I estimate that 6 to 13 should allow access for all players from the various Clubs who have become accustomed to participating over the years.

I guess similar adjustments will be required for Rabbits Groups if life is to continue as before.

Possibly but depending when the league runs the new system should adjust to the new HIs pretty quickly as the more recent rounds flush the older ones.

Thus you will have people of similar abilities playing against each other - which is the whole point really.

Review the bands after a full year if necessary.

 

[IanM]

Am I missing the original post's point?

Currently anyone who has their handicap go outside the tolerances is excluded. Under WHS it's no different, other than existing regulars might find they are "out!" Is this what you are trying to avoid by redefining the bands? We have 2 leagues down here above the scratch leagues which are 10-17.9 and above 18. Faces change in both from month to month. Matches are off played scratch in both. I think the bands won't change as they were set up to bridge a gap for double figure handicappers. Or maybe, we'll all be saying, I am off 18 now, but was off 12 "in old money!"

I've been 13/14 for years... I go up a few 0.1s and then i come down again... I wonder what I'll be off this time next year? More I think. I fancy myself in a few Opens off 18, and I suspect I am not the only one!!

 

[rulefan]

Or do you give players with years of membership an exemption? After all, the chances of someone who has been at 8 for three or four years suddenly becoming four shots a round better in real life are not that great...

It will all depend on how their handicaps will change as a result of the WHS transition calculations.Four recent very good scores may have brought a CONGU handicap down significantly or six 0.1s may have affected the pace a CONGU handicap went up. But the WHS best 8/20 averaging process may counter those effects.

 

[Wildboy370]

I think what the original poster is asking is, at the moment the 8-15 leagues and matches are played with peoples handicaps fixed. So now what happens if you have handicap of 8 or 15 but go to a club for a league match or comp and find the slope takes you out of that bracket so can’t play, leaving the club team possibly short of a team player. Surely if slope exists we have to play using it in every comp, league match etc or it becomes pointless..?.

 

[rulefan]

WHS Handicap Indices will be far more stable than CONGU Handicaps

 

[Yorkshire Hacker]

Well I have read these posts with interest. I can't say I have got my head around WHS just yet, and I can't really say that a fluid handicap that adjusts with the severity of the course, ticks any boxes with me. The situation re 8-15s highlights the shortfalls. I know for a fact that those who organise the matches have the very devil of a job getting players to play, particularly on Friday evenings. If you're going to have your (say) 8 handicapper unavailable just because the next match has a lower slope rating, your going to have some very unhappy match organisers.
I agree it may all settle down once the system falls into place, but at the moment, I'm not "on the same page"!

 

[rulefan]

Well I have read these posts with interest. I can't say I have got my head around WHS just yet, and I can't really say that a fluid handicap that adjusts with the severity of the course, ticks any boxes with me. The situation re 8-15s highlights the shortfalls. I know for a fact that those who organise the matches have the very devil of a job getting players to play, particularly on Friday evenings. If you're going to have your (say) 8 handicapper unavailable just because the next match has a lower slope rating, your going to have some very unhappy match organisers.
!

That's why the Handicap Index not Course Handicap should be used.

 

[TerryA]

Totally agree with rulefan. The whole point is you won’t have a handicap as at present, you will have a handicap index and all leagues,opens etc will be based on index. Can’t see a problem myself.

 

[IanM]

So - in a nutshell.............. you will have a handicap (called a handicap index) -and as long as that is within the parameters you are good to go. (South Wales' versions of this this are played off scratch so no worries about dividing you HCap Index by your opponents inside leg and adding Harry Vardon's birthday or anything)

Now, if your club no longer has any players in that HCap Index Range..... (unlikely I hope!)

And, if my assumption in the first line is wrong, never mind, I currently work too far away to get back for Club Matches midweek!

 

[2blue]

It will all depend on how their handicaps will change as a result of the WHS transition calculations.Four recent very good scores may have brought a CONGU handicap down significantly or six 0.1s may have affected the pace a CONGU handicap went up. But the WHS best 8/20 averaging process may counter those effects.

It's this that's the concern. The possibility that players that are solid CONGU 8 & 9 H/cappers & as such have been involved with the 8-15 League for many years may well, in the transition process, get HI's below 8, well 7.5 to be more precise, due to the severity of their courses 'slope'.
Am I right in thinking that, on the whole, it's likely that our HI's will be lower than our current CONGU H/cap?? ..... especially those courses where there main Q tees have a 'strong' slope...... 142 seems a strong slope for a regularly used White tee..... OK, the SSS may also be above Par, but 142 may exert a stronger influence.
I guess as the H/cap transition is not until Nov decisions can then be made to ensure that our 8-15 players, or possibly 6-13 can continue to enjoy their involvement. My main intention is to, at least, get people thinking about it as most mentions of WHS to folk produces a blank look at best & on a number of occasions, a 'Why change it if it's not broken?' or 'I just want to get on with it & play golf'.......... Dooooh!! or are we just a set of 'nerds'? ....... or fools for wanting to run the golf for them?

 

[Orikoru]

I would say just use the index as the qualifier. So 8 to 15 on the index still qualify. If on the day it's an easier course and your 8 index man is playing off 6 then so be it.

The numbers 8 and 15 seem pretty random to me so if you're worried about losing certain people just change it to 7 to 16??

 

[Swango1980]

Yeah, as others have said, Handicap Index would be what to use (as it does not change based on the course)

Our clubs in Lincolnshire play in a handicap league, where the highest handicap a player can play off is currently 17. It will be interesting to see what they do with this limit once WHS is in play, because a handicap index of 17 would result in a course handicap of up to around 22 on a higher slop course (and probably generally up to around 20 to 21ish for most courses). Perhaps they'll implement an Index limit of of around 14 instead to result in roughly the same sort of course handicap limit as we now have.

 

[Orikoru]

Surely if one person's number of shots goes up with the slope then they all do?? What does it matter?

 

[patricks148]

everyone plays off scratch..... job done