Low handicaps vs Tour Pro's

[Wolf]

Just shows how deep the talent pool is at golf.

Players have to improve continously just to stand still let alone the extremely talented few who get to the very top of the game.

Performance related pay scheme means its a tough way to make a living. Poor play equals no pay.

Exactly right a quick look at the young lad I used to partner would should how good he was but once he got stateside his numbers just didn't improve so though he graduated from US college he never consistently made the golf team or got near a top 15 in a collegiate event.

Getting there is just part of it, realising that no matter how good you are, you have to work harder to compete with people even better is a big thing some people can't cope with.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Tour pros will have a scoring average of 69 to 71 on tough, long set ups, with tucked pins and marbles on the line every day, in all conditions and playing different courses every week.

Scratch amateurs are playing a lot of golf on members courses that might be on average 1000 yards shorter.

It's also possible to be a scratch amateur with a scoring average quite a bit over par, given that you go up 0.1 whether you shoot 74 or 84.

Probably a 15 handicapper is actually closer to a scratch am... compared with the difference between a scratch am and a tour pro.

Actually elite ams play some very tough courses. Friends of mine have played the Lytham trophy and reckon its set up tougher than the open. Hence nearly always being cuts only or +6 css.

 

[Grizzly]

For the want of anything better to do, I posed this question to my former boss, who plays (aged 52 admittedly) off 2 but was a scratch player for 15+ years.

He pointed out that on his best day, he averaged 255 with the driver, and needed a hard eight iron to cover 150 yards. The shortest drive average on the PGA Tour last year was over 270 and the majority of players would be hitting wedge or gap wedge to that distance. So even before inequalities of short game, putting etc come in to play, there is a 20 - 60 yard gap per hole.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

For the want of anything better to do, I posed this question to my former boss, who plays (aged 52 admittedly) off 2 but was a scratch player for 15+ years.

He pointed out that on his best day, he averaged 255 with the driver, and needed a hard eight iron to cover 150 yards. The shortest drive average on the PGA Tour last year was over 270 and the majority of players would be hitting wedge or gap wedge to that distance. So even before inequalities of short game, putting etc come in to play, there is a 20 - 60 yard gap per hole.

Absolutely. Then factor in that we are playing courses around 6500 yards and the pros are playing 7000+

 

[Siolag]

Very interesting perspectives, thanks! It seems that the scratch golfer or those that hover below are not overly scarce, given the number of people that have known one or more. I follow athletics and its very similar there, many struggle to make it from being elite or top juniors to say Olympic or European level.

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

Member at my club plays off +4; probably the best amateur golfer in Surrey - I have never had the fortune to play with him, although if you finish 16th in the Club Champs (I was 20th last year!) you would likely play against him in a Scratch Match (oh dear!) as the Top 16 players do a scratch knockout comp.

He is, apparently, incredibly steady - Not crazy long, but just hits every shot exactly where it's meant to go, and his short game/putting is different gravy.

He rarely plays club competitions, because the CSS is not 'high' enough; he can't go and shoot a 66 (-4) every time. He normally shoots a 68, or a 69 - rarely worse. But he plays every Amateur event going at some seriously tough courses with tournament setup (where the CSS is +4, +5 etc)... And he still comes in with a -1, or level par round - enough to maintain a +4 handicap.

But an Asian Tour/European Tour player who visits frequently trots round casually about 4 or 5 under 'comfortably', I am led to believe. Even the difference between those levels is significant enough.

There is a fantastic article somewhere about the different tiers of golfers from Club Pros to EuroPro/Challenge Tour Pros, to European/PGA Tour Grinders to Major Winners, it's brilliant, but I can't find it for the life of me. The difference between each tier is pretty huge.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Good to see how realistic the general comments are, but that's way off the mark.

Yep the gap is much bigger than 0-15

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Very interesting perspectives, thanks! It seems that the scratch golfer or those that hover below are not overly scarce, given the number of people that have known one or more. I follow athletics and its very similar there, many struggle to make it from being elite or top juniors to say Olympic or European level.

Scratch golfers today are commonplace. The handicap system was changed many years ago (not sure when) but we have an old guy at my club who told me that when he was off scratch there were only about 70 in the country. I believe back then that there was also no plus handicap system, lowest you could get was scratch but I'm not 100% sure about that, need an expert to confirm/deny.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Sorry for being awfully pedantic ?, but isn't +5.5 still +5? (Because it's actually minus 5.5 and we always round up?)

Either way, phenomenal golf.

I always equate golf standards to football, you can be the best in school, in your town, but you don't need to go far down the road to find quite a few better players.

The lad who's the Saturday afternoon football star, equivalent to the local plus 1 club champ, is still a long way from Premier League standards the same way the plus 1 is from the European/PGA tour.

Dunno, a + handicap isn't something I'll ever have to worry about Either way though, he was 0.1 away so he either got to +5.4 or +5.5 He cycles a lot too but at least I can match him on the bike

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

There were lots of other stipulations too, you had to submit a certain number of 'away' scores every year etc.

 

[Grant85]

Good to see how realistic the general comments are, but that's way off the mark.

well how many 15 handicappers go on to become scratch golfers, compared with how many scratch golfers go on to become tour players?

and by 15 handicappers... I mean someone genuinely at that level for a year or two. Not just someone new to the game improving quickly.

Listening to Webb Simpson pod on NLU. He says his caddy keeps track of a handicap for him in order to play with friends on a buddies trip. He is generally playing off a plus 7 or 8. Meanwhile his scoring average on the PGA tour last year was 69.4 (probably 2.25 under Par) around tough, long set-ups, in tournament conditions.

Put a scratch golfer from your club on PGA Tour courses for the next dozen medals and he is averaging closer to 80 than 70 imo.

 

[Grant85]

Or put it another way... lets say you were a top golf coach and I said I'll give you a job.

Take 50 x15 handicappers and get them to scratch or take 50 scratch golfers and get them a European Tour card.
All abled bodied golfers in their 20s and 30s.

Your remuneration is based on how many successes you get and a miss is as good as a mile.

What job do you think is more likely to feed your family?

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Or put it another way... lets say you were a top golf coach and I said I'll give you a job.

Take 50 x15 handicappers and get them to scratch or take 50 scratch golfers and get them a European Tour card.
All abled bodied golfers in their 20s and 30s.

Your remuneration is based on how many successes you get and a miss is as good as a mile.

What job do you think is more likely to feed your family?

I don't know, give us a clue?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Slightly OT but may be of interest.

In the 1990's I wanted to open a new golf course without sending too much cash,
I organised a county Pro's v Amateur match, which I was pleased to note attracted a lot of attention and speculation.
Their were no tour players in the Pro's team mostly run of the mill club Pros. [although a couple played later on tour but didn't really set the heather on fire.]
The amateur team by contrast was star studded and included 3 current England players in what was probably the best amateur era for Wiltshire golf.
None had played the course and I was amazed to see some of the amateurs arrive early to walk parts of the course....serious stuff
A crowd of around 200 turned up to watch.
No one gave the Pro's a chance, there was even talk of a whitewash.
To everyone's surprise [ inc me and most of the Pros] the Pro's went on to win relatively comfortably.

 

[Grant85]

Actually elite ams play some very tough courses. Friends of mine have played the Lytham trophy and reckon its set up tougher than the open. Hence nearly always being cuts only or +6 css.

That's fine, but elite amateurs are often + handicappers and they are elite so are already better than scratch.
Scratch I'd say is people hovering around the 0 mark and many clubs will fill their scratch teams with people up to a 3 handicap, depending on who is available.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

There were lots of other stipulations too, you had to submit a certain number of 'away' scores every year etc.

Four away cards...............Tell me about it
Playing off two I was one away card short of getting to one.
It was late in the season playing a Hampshire course I needed a par 5 at the last to achieve that goal.
Played two safe three woods to 50 yards from the green ended up with a seven thanks to some dodgy GUR marking.

 

[Siolag]

Or put it another way... lets say you were a top golf coach and I said I'll give you a job.

Take 50 x15 handicappers and get them to scratch or take 50 scratch golfers and get them a European Tour card.
All abled bodied golfers in their 20s and 30s.

Your remuneration is based on how many successes you get and a miss is as good as a mile.

What job do you think is more likely to feed your family?

Simply down the the law of diminishing returns, I’d be taking the 15 handicappers. The scratch guys probably have their practice nailed down and won’t have much improvement in them, whereas 15 suggests that one major aspect of the game isn’t right and a few others things need tweaked.

 

[hairball_89]

Just to bring this back up... Think it's safe to say this backs up the point about tour pros murdering courses... 6887 yards from the very back tees, so hefty for us mere mortals but probably short in comparison to what he's used to. nothing more than a 3 on his last 11, ELEVEN! holes.

I know nothing of the course, but holy hell it must have been fun watching him go round...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1258895699866816514

 

[hovis]

My friend was off +4. He played along side some European tour players. He said he found just as many fairways as them but a lot of shots to the greens where 180+ and he was getting battered by them.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

One of our members is the PE teacher for Conor Gough who played in the last Walker Cup. He's played with Conor at places like Stoke Park as well as Royal Ascot and apparently he can knock it round under par without breaking sweat. Apparently he has a brother who is even more talented. It'll be interesting to see, once golf returns how his career progresses and whether he'll make a mark in the amateur game and if he does turn pro at some point whether he can make it. As this thread has shown, it is that jump even from being a top amateur to a pro that can make a go of it that can be a huge chasm