Lost ball found!!!

[Thierry]

Right, here we go!!!

Player 1 plays his tee shot and it appears it may have gone OOB, player 2 pulls his tee shot left into the cabbage but decides he'll find it so player 1 plays a provisional into the fairway and off they go to look for their respective balls.

After a good search, player 1 finds his ball and it is OOB so picks it up and goes to help his FC who is still searching for his. Player 2 then decides his ball won't be found so declares it lost and sets off back towards the tee and plays another tee shot (now 3 off the tee) into a water hazard!! A spectator who is rooting for player 2 sees this and realises his player is in trouble so goes to look for his players first ball again and, by the time player 2 gets down to the hazard, claims to have found it!!

Which ball should player 2 proceed with??
A. The ball in the hazard because he declared the first one lost and replayed the stroke?
B. The ball in the hazard because the first ball was not found within the 5 minutes which have well and truly elapsed?
C. The lost and now found ball because the ball in the hazard is a "provisional ball" until a stroke is made with it beyond the first?

I think it's B but stand ready to be corrected!!!

Thanks all

 

[fundy]

B full stop, youre correct (oh and someone needs to tell the bloke rooting to butt out lol). As soon as he hits the 3 off the tee that is the ball in play (obv it wasnt declared a provisional because hed been to look for the 1st one already)

(for reference, you cant actualy declare a ball lost as per A, it becomes lost per the actions as in B)

 

[rickg]

Right, here we go!!!

Player 1 plays his tee shot and it appears it may have gone OOB, player 2 pulls his tee shot left into the cabbage but decides he'll find it so player 1 plays a provisional into the fairway and off they go to look for their respective balls.

After a good search, player 1 finds his ball and it is OOB so picks it up and goes to help his FC who is still searching for his. Player 2 then decides his ball won't be found so declares it lost and sets off back towards the tee and plays another tee shot (now 3 off the tee) into a water hazard!! A spectator who is rooting for player 2 sees this and realises his player is in trouble so goes to look for his players first ball again and, by the time player 2 gets down to the hazard, claims to have found it!!

Which ball should player 2 proceed with??
A. The ball in the hazard because he declared the first one lost and replayed the stroke?
B. The ball in the hazard because the first ball was not found within the 5 minutes which have well and truly elapsed?
C. The lost and now found ball because the ball in the hazard is a "provisional ball" until a stroke is made with it beyond the first?

I think it's B but stand ready to be corrected!!!

Thanks all

None of the above!!!

We'll ignore the fact for now that you can't "declare" a ball lost.....

The players ball in play is the one in the hazard, but the reason ( which you didn't list) is because the player went back to play another ball...as soon as he did that, the original ball is no longer in play, EVEN if it is found within the 5 minute allowance...

 

[Thierry]

None of the above!!!

We'll ignore the fact for now that you can't "declare" a ball lost.....

The players ball in play is the one in the hazard, but the reason ( which you didn't list) is because the player went back to play another ball...as soon as he did that, the original ball is no longer in play, EVEN if it is found within the 5 minute allowance...

Sorry, yes, been told off for saying "declare" before!!!

Ok, cool, so the minute he makes a stroke with the second ball it is in play unless it was declared a provisional which it wasn't. Simples!!! Right decision, wrong logic!!! Standard!!!

If he declares the second one a provisional presumably that becomes the ball in play after the 5 minutes is up so if the first ball is then subsequently found it is irrelevant??

 

[fundy]

Sorry, yes, been told off for saying "declare" before!!!

Ok, cool, so the minute he makes a stroke with the second ball it is in play unless it was declared a provisional which it wasn't. Simples!!! Right decision, wrong logic!!! Standard!!!

If he declares the second one a provisional presumably that

His ball is lost at either of 2 points. Once when the 5 minutes is up, the other when he puts another non provisional ball in play. Ultimately his ball becomes lost when the first of these occurs (which I expect would be when the 5 mins expired)

 

[Thierry]

(oh and someone needs to tell the bloke rooting to butt out lol).

Couldn't agree more!!!!!

:blah:

 

[palindromicbob]

His ball is lost at either of 2 points. Once when the 5 minutes is up, the other when he puts another non provisional ball in play. Ultimately his ball becomes lost when the first of these occurs (which I expect would be when the 5 mins expired)

Sorry, yes, been told off for saying "declare" before!!!

Ok, cool, so the minute he makes a stroke with the second ball it is in play unless it was declared a provisional which it wasn't. Simples!!! Right decision, wrong logic!!! Standard!!!

If he declares the second one a provisional presumably that becomes the ball in play after the 5 minutes is up so if the first ball is then subsequently found it is irrelevant??

It is worth noting that from the moment the player went forward to search for his original ball he abandoned the option to play a provisional. The decision to play a provisional must be made before moving on.

So yes as said the ball in the hazard is in play. The moment he hit the second ball the original was defined as lost regardless of him declaring the second as a provisional or not, even if the original was found within 5 minutes.

 

[Imurg]

It is worth noting that from the moment the player went forward to search for his original ball he abandoned the option to play a provisional. The decision to play a provisional must be made before moving on.
.

You are, now, allowed to go forward a short distance before deciding to return and hit a provisional.
I believe something in the region of 50 yards is acceptable but I don't think there is a fixed number.

It allows a moment to think " actually I do need to play a Provo there"....

 

[Imurg]

The players ball in play is the one in the hazard, but the reason ( which you didn't list) is because the player went back to play another ball...as soon as he did that, the original ball is no longer in play, EVEN if it is found within the 5 minute allowance...

You sure about that Rick...?
Just walking back doesn't make the ball lost.
As long as the ball is found within 5 minutes and no other ball has been put into play, he can have got as far as the tee - he can come back and play it.

 

[Foxholer]

None of the above!!!

We'll ignore the fact for now that you can't "declare" a ball lost.....

The players ball in play is the one in the hazard, but the reason ( which you didn't list) is because the player went back to play another ball...as soon as he did that, the original ball is no longer in play, EVEN if it is found within the 5 minute allowance...

Er. Wrong!!! Complete Myth!!! Tosh/Rubbish even! (just to show i don't discriminate!).

The action you describe is the equivalent of 'declaring it lost'.

It's the act of putting another ball into play that means the original is lost - not the intention to do so. There is nothing in the Rules that I can think of (though I'm prepared to be corrected) that covers any 'intended' action - save the definition of a stroke, which is a combo. The Rules only deal with real/actual actions!

Here's the definition of 'Lost'. (C) is the relevant one here.

Lost Ball
A ball is deemed “lost” if:

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or

d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or

e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search.

 

[palindromicbob]

You are, now, allowed to go forward a short distance before deciding to return and hit a provisional.
I believe something in the region of 50 yards is acceptable but I don't think there is a fixed number.

It allows a moment to think " actually I do need to play a Provo there"....

That why I said moved forward to search rather than just moved forward

 

[chrisd]

You are, now, allowed to go forward a short distance before deciding to return and hit a provisional.
I believe something in the region of 50 yards is acceptable but I don't think there is a fixed number.

It allows a moment to think " actually I do need to play a Provo there"....

I think that the main reason for the change was to cover a case where a player leaves his bag some distance away from the teeing ground then needs to go and get another ball out of his bag to be a provisional. We have one such hole but only a complete donut fails to take at least on spare ball with him!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think that the main reason for the change was to cover a case where a player leaves his bag some distance away from the teeing ground then needs to go and get another ball out of his bag to be a provisional. We have one such hole but only a complete donut fails to take at least on spare ball with him!

Go on then dunk me for I am one

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I think that the main reason for the change was to cover a case where a player leaves his bag some distance away from the teeing ground then needs to go and get another ball out of his bag to be a provisional. We have one such hole but only a complete donut fails to take at least on spare ball with him!

I'm a doughnut then, I have never and will never take a spare ball to a tee with me.

 

[Foxholer]

I think that the main reason for the change was to cover a case where a player leaves his bag some distance away from the teeing ground then needs to go and get another ball out of his bag to be a provisional. We have one such hole but only a complete donut fails to take at least on spare ball with him!

If he states that he is going to play a Provisional before he leaves even the teeing area, then going to actually get one shouldn't be a problem - as it is clear that he is not going 'forward to search for the original ball' (the wording of the Rule).

 

[rulefan]

27-2a/1.5
A player will be considered to have gone forward to search when he has proceeded more than a short distance towards the place where his original ball is likely to be. As the purpose of Rule 27-2a is to save time, the player is permitted to go forward a short distance before determining that it would save time to return promptly to play a provisional ball. As a guideline, a player should be considered to have proceeded more than a short distance, and therefore to have gone forward to search, if he has proceeded more than approximately 50 yards. However, this guideline does not preclude a player from playing a provisional ball when he has proceeded more than a short distance for another specific purpose, such as to retrieve a ball or a different club to play a provisional ball, or to confer with a referee. (Revised)