Loose impediment too big to move

[MashieNiblick]

A friend has just asked me what the ruling would be in following situation

A player drives his ball onto the fairway. Whilst walking to the ball a tree or very large branch falls onto the fairway where his ball is such that it is now impossible for the player to play his ball. The fallen tree/branch is fully detached from the stump but is far to big to be moved.

Looking at the Rules and Decisions indicated the following

Decision 23/7 confirms that a fallen tree is a loose impediment provided it is not attached to the stump

Decision 23-1/ confirms that even if a loose impediment may be moved with much effort it may still be moved provided this does not unduly delay play.

Decision 23-/4 would not apply as breaking off part of tree/branch would not assist player to play the ball.

As the tree/branch is to big to be moved by the players is this simply a "rub of the green" and the only relief available would be to declare the ball unplayable?

The question was prompted by seeing a tree falling, but not where the ball was, but giving rise to the question "What if..?"

One issue was whether in equity in such a case the player is entitled to a free drop on the basis that he is entitled to the lie his stroke gave him, and when his ball came to rest, as per Decisions 13-2/8 and 13-2/8.5, even if in this case it could only be a similar lie (I can see that causing problems).

Many thanks for any help.

 

[backwoodsman]

I'm thinking it would be a rub of the green. If you can move it, fine, but if it's too big to move (with the resources available to you at the time) then i think it's tough. There aren't (as far as I can see) any alternatives within the rules as currently written.

 

[Foxholer]

The way I read 23-1/2, it implies that if it can't be moved (without undue delay), then it is not a 'loose' impediment! Howe

So 'tough'!

However, 23-1/4 states you can break off bits of it - which might help.

 

[fundy]

You just need a decent crowd to get it moved

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lVCF8c5zk

 

[Imurg]

I'm thinking it would be a rub of the green. If you can move it, fine, but if it's too big to move (with the resources available to you at the time) then i think it's tough. There aren't (as far as I can see) any alternatives within the rules as currently written.

If I was out on the course and this happened I think I'd go with this...
If it can't be moved then its not "loose" as such...
Also I've never agreed with Tigers interpretation of loose....if it can't be moved by you and/or your playing partners then it ain't loose..!

 

[fundy]

If I was out on the course and this happened I think I'd go with this...
If it can't be moved then its not "loose" as such...
Also I've never agreed with Tigers interpretation of loose....if it can't be moved by you and/or your playing partners then it ain't loose..!

pretty sure it was the rules officials not Tigers interpretation

 

[Imurg]

pretty sure it was the rules officials not Tigers interpretation

But I bet he asked him! Whoever decided, it's still wrong..

 

[Colin L]

But I bet he asked him! Whoever decided, it's still wrong..

It wasn't wrong then.

And it isn't wrong now as clarified by D23-1/3:
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-23,d23-1-3

 

[Imurg]

It wasn't wrong then.

And it isn't wrong now as clarified by D23-1/3:
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-23,d23-1-3

Wrong as in it should be wrong.....in my opinion of course😀

 

[fundy]

Wrong as in it should be wrong.....in my opinion of course😀

wrong as in CSS is wrong, we understand


if you watch the video you hear tiger clearly ask who is allowed to move the "1 ton boulder" lol

 

[Imurg]

wrong as in CSS is wrong, we understand


if you watch the video you hear tiger clearly ask who is allowed to move the "1 ton boulder" lol

Let's hope we have a couple of dozen people on hand next time we're stuck behind one...

 

[atticusfinch]

If I was out on the course and this happened I think I'd go with this...
If it can't be moved then its not "loose" as such...
Also I've never agreed with Tigers interpretation of loose....if it can't be moved by you and/or your playing partners then it ain't loose..!

The rule says "loose" not heavy.

 

[atticusfinch]

I'm thinking it would be a rub of the green.

No. A "rub of the green" occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency

 

[atticusfinch]

One issue was whether in equity in such a case the player is entitled to a free drop on the basis that he is entitled to the lie his stroke gave him,

Equity only applies when no rule or decision applies to the situation even if the result is unfavorable. A ball that is interfered with by a loose impediment is addressed in rule 23. The fact that the relief in that rule cannot be availed does not give rise to the need for equity. If an impediment cannot be removed easily relief is available under rule 28.

 

[rulie]

Equity only applies when no rule or decision applies to the situation even if the result is unfavorable. A ball that is interfered with by a loose impediment is addressed in rule 23. The fact that the relief in that rule cannot be availed does not give rise to the need for equity. If an impediment cannot be removed easily relief is available under rule 28.

Just to reiterate the above responses, see these two Decisions:

[FONT=&quot]13-4/18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Partner's, Opponent's or Fellow-Competitor's Divot Comes to Rest Near Player's Ball in Bunker[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Q. A player's partner, opponent or fellow-competitor plays a stroke from near a bunker and the divot comes to rest near the player's ball lying in the bunker. May the divot be removed?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A. A player is entitled to the lie which his stroke gave him. Accordingly, in equity (Rule 1-4), the divot may be removed without penalty. The same would apply if the player's ball was lying in a water hazard.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13-4/18.5[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Pine Cone Falls from Tree and Comes to Rest Behind Ball Lying in Bunker[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Q. A pine cone falls from a tree and comes to rest behind a ball which is lying in a bunker. Under the principle in Decision 13-4/18, may the player remove the pine cone without penalty?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A. No. The principle in Decision 13-4/18 is applied only in cases in which the lie of a ball has been altered as a result of an act by another player or caddie, or by a spectator or other animate outside agency. In this case, the lie was altered through natural causes.[/FONT]

 

[atticusfinch]

In both your examples the ball was at rest before the interference occurred. If the interference was present before the ball came to rest equity cannot save him.

 

[rulie]

In both your examples the ball was at rest before the interference occurred. If the interference was present before the ball came to rest equity cannot save him.

Not certain whose examples you are referring to, but equity cannot save him after the ball came rest unless the interference was the result of actions by a fellow-competitor or opponent, their caddies, spectators or other animate outside agency (a tree is not an animate outside agency).

 

[atticusfinch]

Not certain whose examples you are referring to, but equity cannot save him after the ball came rest unless the interference was the result of actions by a fellow-competitor or opponent, their caddies, spectators or other animate outside agency (a tree is not an animate outside agency).

The examples in the decisions you cited.

 

[backwoodsman]

No. A "rub of the green" occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency

Ok, point taken. But i was using it in the more colloquial sense - as shorthand for "one of those things that happens whilst out on the course which you have to take as is, like it or lump it, and get on with the game and play the ball as it lies unless you invoke a rule that allows you an alternative." There... I've typed it out now...

 

[atticusfinch]

Wrong as in it should be wrong.....in my opinion of course

Curious about how you would re write the rule to make it "right."