louise_a
Money List Winner
actually I do say you can take a drop, but its worth being aware.
Lateral water hazard - lost ball.
- Thread starter Sid Rixon IV
- Start date
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
That's not advice, it's factual information only. Factual info can​ be advice but isn't necessarily so if it doesn't as the rule says, "influence a player in determining his play, the choice of club or the method of making the stroke" Stopping a player from infringing the rules doesn't come under this definition.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Well, telling a player to do something (aka should do something) strikes me as advice - as it's likely to influence what/how they play - whereas telling a player that they can do something (or several things)...does not.
Would you tell a FC whose ball is in a bush to take a specific one of the 4 options? Or would you simply state the options. One's advice, the other is not!
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rulefan
Tour Winner
Why? If they find it in the WH they may play it as it lies.
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
Query it with the R & A if you're unsure, I've done that before & they're very helpful. I won't in this case because I'm 99.9% sure I'm right.
Foxholer
Blackballed
You didn't answer my question - re possible unplayable - though!
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
I'm 99.9% with Foxy on this but I also agree with what you have written in post #22 apart from your conclusion in this context!
To be clear, telling someone how they should proceed when they have options under the rules will constitute advice because it clearly could influence their decisions as to how to proceed. It's interesting that in quoting the definition of advice in your post you don't start at the beginning and exclude the 'could'.
“Advice’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.
Advising someone of their options under the rules is not advice; nor is asking them if they are aware of their options during play.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Spoilsport Duncan! I was getting round to making a comparison (equivalence actually) of the 2 situations via my 'possible unplayable' example!
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Do you have in mind Decision 8-1/16 - Suggesting to Competitor That He Declare His Ball Unplayable
"Q. B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would declare the ball unplayable." Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1?
"A. Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B “in determining his playâ€. Thus, it constituted advice – see Definition of “Adviceâ€. It did not constitute “information on the Rulesâ€, which is not advice."
"A. Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B “in determining his playâ€. Thus, it constituted advice – see Definition of “Adviceâ€. It did not constitute “information on the Rulesâ€, which is not advice."
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
Of course not, but where there is only one legal option it's not advice.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Well there's at least 3 legal options when a ball goes into a WH - more if it's a LH!
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
You're right. Think I should have read the posts properly. Apologies.
Still waiting for the OP to come back.
Sid Rixon IV
Head Pro
Apologies to all for not coming back sooner - I've been out of the house since this morning.
Im posting without yet reading all the responses (for which I am grateful) because I saw that I'd been asked why I played a provisional.
1 I played it not knowing that the point of entry of my first ball was within the LWH.
2 I thought the LWH only existed alongside the green and that I'd simply hit my ball into thick undergrowth short of the green.
3 When my FC and I looked at the point at which we both thought my ball entered he noticed that the LWH in fact extended all the way along the right hand boundary but the redline had become faded and two marker pegs were unearthed and lying flat.
4 As I had no chance of finding the ball I was prepared to play the provisional when my partner produced a rule book and, to his credit, applied the more favourable ruling, for me, of a drop.
I hope that makes sense.
Now I shall read your responses.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Are you saying that much/most of the 'thick undergrowth' was actually in the marked LWH, if not in the ditch itself?
In effect, Duncan's post (#2) needs to be answered . How did you know that the ball was in the hazard and not simply lost somewhere in the undergrowth?
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Sid Rixon IV
Head Pro
The ditch/water hazard runs parallel to the length of the green at the furthest point from the tee.
You cannot play from the far side of the ditch in that area because of high undergrowth.
From the nearest two thirds of the distance from tee to front of green the ditch runs off at an angle behind thick high undergrowth.
We only know that my ball went into the undergrowth immediately behind the red line but it's impossible to determine if the ball is in the hazard or in the undergrowth.
On every occasion someone hits their ball into that area we automatically deem it as unlikely to be found and play a provisional.
On this occasion my FC "ruled" I was entitled to drop.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
So you are basically saying that there is thick undergrowth the other side of a ditch (LWH) which is not deemed to be part of the hazard?
If this is the case then it would appear to me that your ball, as described, could be in either the ditch or the undergrowth beyond the ditch. In the absence of knowledge that it is in the ditch - which here would seem to require it being found in the ditch - the ball is lost and your provisional became the ball in play.
Courses really should have a clear area between such ditches/hazards and such undergrowth behind or, more commonly, keep the ditch clear so that balls in it can be established quickly and easily so that relief can be taken.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Alternatively, include the undergrowth within the hazard margin.
