Labour and the SNP

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So what that sounds to me, is that devolved powers don't work. May as well give all powers back to Westminster!

I don't see how you can be a fan of devolved powers for Scotland, but not for England? Your point about a minority opposition deciding what the government can do, is no different to having a different party in power in the Scottish parliament to the Uk Gov. Why should a Labour gov (in your example) be able to cut the education for only England, and not for Scotland?

I'm not against federalism and a devolved government for England - but trying to enact it in the context of a Westminster parliament just seems to be asking for trouble and problems. The Scottish electorate was assured that Scotland was a valued part of the Union and that Scotland's voice was stronger by remaining in the Union and having their voice heard through Westminster. Well it might be heard but who is going to be listening to those 59 tier-2 not-quite Westminster Scottish MPs.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I'm not against federalism and a devolved government for England - but trying to enact it in the context of a Westminster parliament just seems to be asking for trouble and problems. The Scottish electorate was assured that Scotland was a valued part of the Union and that Scotland's voice was stronger by remaining in the Union and having their voice heard through Westminster. Well it might be heard but who is going to be listening to those 59 tier-2 not-quite Westminster Scottish MPs.

But their voice would still be heard, on matters that concern them. If it has nothing to do with them, why do they want a say on it?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So what that sounds to me, is that devolved powers don't work. May as well give all powers back to Westminster!

I don't see how you can be a fan of devolved powers for Scotland, but not for England? Your point about a minority opposition deciding what the government can do, is no different to having a different party in power in the Scottish parliament to the Uk Gov. Why should a Labour gov (in your example) be able to cut the education for only England, and not for Scotland?

With EVEL - a Westminster Labour government with a majority that relies on Scottish MPs wouldn't be able to cut education in England unless it had support from other rUK parties. But note that as an example, Westminster cutting education spending in England will have a knock-on effect on the block grant allocated to Scotland under Barnett - so much reason for Scottish MPs to have a vote?

 

[FairwayDodger]

The whole EVEL thing is, unfortunately, the wrong solution for a real issue.

Devolution around the UK is already an inconsistent mess but limiting the voice of some MPs in the UK parliament in some ill-conceived attempt at English devolution is messy and divisive.

IMO if we must have devolution, there should be Scottish, English, Welsh and N Irish assemblies with identical powers and a Westminster parliament to handle all non-devolved matters. Ideally it'd be the same MPs from the devolved assemblies that trapped up to Westminster two days a week (or whatever) for UK business rather than taxpayers stumping up for double the number of politicians as we do now...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The whole EVEL thing is, unfortunately, the wrong solution for a real issue.

Devolution around the UK is already an inconsistent mess but limiting the voice of some MPs in the UK parliament in some ill-conceived attempt at English devolution is messy and divisive.

IMO if we must have devolution, there should be Scottish, English, Welsh and N Irish assemblies with identical powers and a Westminster parliament to handle all non-devolved matters. Ideally it'd be the same MPs from the devolved assemblies that trapped up to Westminster two days a week (or whatever) for UK business rather than taxpayers stumping up for double the number of politicians as we do now...

Absolutely. EVEL in Westminster is really not clever. Create an English Parliament - maybe using a revamped HoC - with UK-wide non-devolved powers being dealt with in a second chamber that uses the HoL (would mean dumping the Lords but hey-ho)

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The whole EVEL thing is, unfortunately, the wrong solution for a real issue.

Devolution around the UK is already an inconsistent mess but limiting the voice of some MPs in the UK parliament in some ill-conceived attempt at English devolution is messy and divisive.

IMO if we must have devolution, there should be Scottish, English, Welsh and N Irish assemblies with identical powers and a Westminster parliament to handle all non-devolved matters. Ideally it'd be the same MPs from the devolved assemblies that trapped up to Westminster two days a week (or whatever) for UK business rather than taxpayers stumping up for double the number of politicians as we do now...

Totally agree with that.

The system is in a mucking fuddle and needs someone with a bit of vision to sort.
Perhaps Prince Charles should step in.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Absolutely. EVEL in Westminster is really not clever. Create an English Parliament - maybe using a revamped HoC - with UK-wide non-devolved powers being dealt with in a second chamber that uses the HoL (would mean dumping the Lords but hey-ho)

But how does that resolve your perceived nightmare.

Although unlikely a future UK Labour administration could find itself overruled on English issues by a Conservative led English Parliament.

This is already the case for the current UK Parliament and Scottish legislation.

 

[Foxholer]

But how does that resolve your perceived nightmare.

Although unlikely a future UK Labour administration could find itself overruled on English issues by a Conservative led English Parliament.

This is already the case for the current UK Parliament and Scottish legislation.

That's the entire purpose of Devolution - local laws/rules for local conditions. All within the funding constraints of course!

What can't happen, in a devolved relationship, is for the UK Parliament to over-rule the 'devolved' one - except in emergency/crisis circumstances. That would not be devolution to me!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

That's the entire purpose of Devolution - local laws/rules for local conditions. All within the funding constraints of course!

What can't happen, in a devolved relationship, is for the UK Parliament to over-rule the 'devolved' one - except in emergency/crisis circumstances. That would not be devolution to me!

Precisely! And I don't have a problem with that.

However, it does seem to bother SilH in the case of "English" legislation and a Labour administration which, like many in the past was the minority party in England.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Cameron and the Tory party seem to be sleepwalking into a constitutional nightmare with his proposed EVEL plans.
Can you imagine the stooshie of a Westminster English Affairs committee with a majority of Scots/Welsh and NI MP's.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Grayling being slaughtered by all the political parties in the commons.
They seem to be lining up to shoot down this shoddy legislation.
I would be amazed if it goes through against all this general opposition.

Cameron accused of trying to break up the Union by Labour and Tory MP's.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Grayling being slaughtered by all the political parties in the commons.
They seem to be lining up to shoot down this shoddy legislation.
I would be amazed if it goes through against all this general opposition.

Cameron accused of trying to break up the Union by Labour and Tory MP's.

Any evidence to support your latest ludicrous claim?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Any evidence to support your latest ludicrous claim?

Debate is on BBC Parliament at the moment - watch and draw own conclusions on whether or not DfT is right.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Debate is on BBC Parliament at the moment - watch and draw own conclusions on whether or not DfT is right.

Entirely predictable comments from various Opposition MP's and a rogue Tory.

Hardly likely to bring about the collapse of this particular piece of long overdue legislation.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Any evidence to support your latest ludicrous claim?

BBC Politics Live from the Commons.:lol:

By the timing of your posts I take it you missed it.
Awaiting apology!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

BBC Politics Live from the Commons.:lol:

By the timing of your posts I take it you missed it.
Awaiting apology!

See above!

Usual suspects speaking usual guff.

Hardly a "general level of opposition" likely to derail the legislation. Hence your claim is ludicrous and mere wishful thinking (again!).

 

[Doon frae Troon]

See above!

Usual suspects speaking usual guff.

Hardly a "general level of opposition" likely to derail the legislation. Hence your claim is ludicrous and mere wishful thinking (again!).

Watched last 10 mins then.........there was a lot of anger in the chamber against the government legislation from all...... repeat all parties inc the one independent MP.
If you and your ilk think this is good legislation then god help us.
300 years of British democracy ending due to a Tory panic measure.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Watched last 10 mins then.........there was a lot of anger in the chamber against the government legislation from all...... repeat all parties inc the one independent MP.
If you and your ilk think this is good legislation then god help us.
300 years of British democracy ending due to a Tory panic measure.

All parties? How many of the majority party were opposed to the proposed legislation.

And am I take it that you are happy for Carmichael to be so eloquent on this matter when only recently you were welcoming moves by his constituents to have him removed.

Not so much a panic measure as a measure to placate English voters who, since devolution (a Labour panic measure?), have felt inequitably treated.

In any event what is your problem? If this measure was to lead to the break up of the Union it would be fulfilling the wish of the SNP.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

In any event what is your problem? If this measure was to lead to the break up of the Union it would be fulfilling the wish of the SNP.

As well as Cameron and the anti Unionist supporters within the Tory Party.
What a strange mix, it almost appears that they are working in tandem

 

[SocketRocket]

Watched last 10 mins then.........there was a lot of anger in the chamber against the government legislation from all...... repeat all parties inc the one independent MP.
If you and your ilk think this is good legislation then god help us.
300 years of British democracy ending due to a Tory panic measure.

But we haven't had devolution in the UK for 300 years. I fail to understand how anyone cannot see that it's only fair that England gets the same devolved powers over it's local affairs the same as the rest of the UK. Surely even you must concede this?