Is it worth it?

[woody69]

I hear what you say BUT that's different to those that are actively seeking to penalise a player and get obvious pleasure from doing so. It's a tough one and, if I'm 100% honest (which might get me a DQ!) there are instances when I've seen a breach of the rules which is not deliberate and from which no real advantage is gained. Would I call it?? If the player is already hacking it round and having a nightmare then probably not but a quiet word to the wise afterwards would be my preferred course of action all things being considered.

What if they were having a storming round and on course to winning. Is it OK then to call them on a breach even if no real advantage was gained? Surely if they are having an awful round it's easier to say, "that's a 1/2SP penalty because of blah blah etc etc".

 

[bladeplayer]

What if they were having a storming round and on course to winning. Is it OK then to call them on a breach even if no real advantage was gained? Surely if they are having an awful round it's easier to say, "that's a 1/2SP penalty because of blah blah etc etc".

Dont think your getting what Amanda means , if they were in with a chance of winning or even featuring you would be 100% obliged to say it & call it .. hacking around with no chance , just have a word afterwards. its not gona change much ..

Im with your way of thinking on this Amanda ..

 

[AmandaJR]

Dont think your getting what Amanda means , if they were in with a chance of winning or even featuring you would be 100% obliged to say it & call it .. hacking around with no chance , just have a word afterwards. its not gona change much ..

Im with your way of thinking on this Amanda ..

Yep - sums up how I feel about it...sometimes there's a time and a place and some "leniancy" feels more human somehow (or humane)!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If I see someone breach in a comp I will pull them on it - for their own good and as my own duty of care to the integrity of the competition. If I see someone do a breach in casual play I will either pull them on it or later point out the breach - on a case by case basis. But in golf, as in life, sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and I always approach these situations with that mindset. And I am (hopefully) never malicious, smug or gleeful. Usually just apologetically (very British) factual.

 

[Foxholer]

What if they were having a storming round and on course to winning. Is it OK then to call them on a breach even if no real advantage was gained? Surely if they are having an awful round it's easier to say, "that's a 1/2SP penalty because of blah blah etc etc".

And irrespective of whether anyone decides to ignore it or not (a moral dilemma each has to resolve), the fact that no real advantage is/was gained is beside the point as to whether it's a breach or not. Stepping on your own ball while searching for it and touching it before a stroke sufficient to wobble forward as opposed to simply oscillate are examples.

 

[atticusfinch]

Is it OK then to call them on a breach even if no real advantage was gained?

When you develop a "real advantage"detector let the world know. :mmm:

The rules are written based on "potential advantages" and should be enforced if breached .

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

When you develop a "real advantage"detector let the world know. :mmm:

The rules are written based on "potential advantages" and should be enforced if breached .

..bearing in mind that the breach - though maybe not to the onlooker giving the player an obvious advantage - may have a significant effect in the payers mindset, and that can provide an advantage over the coming holes and the rest of the round.

 

[atticusfinch]

Yep - sums up how I feel about it...sometimes there's a time and a place and some "leniancy" feels more human somehow (or humane)!

I'm from the "hardliner" school and think this kind of thinking is dangerous for a rules official. We all want to be humane but soon we start down the road where decisions take into account judgmental factors there is no telling where it will end and we start making rulings based on things other than the rules of golf.

This sounds harsh in the grand scheme of a competition, but whether a penalty makes any difference to a particular player in a particular circumstance misses the point of golf penalties. They are not punishment for behavior and should be imposed where a breach occurs. We are not in the business of assuaging the sensitivities of players. :sbox:

 

[AmandaJR]

I'm from the "hardliner" school and think this kind of thinking is dangerous for a rules official. We all want to be humane but soon we start down the road where decisions take into account judgmental factors there is no telling where it will end and we start making rulings based on things other than the rules of golf.

This sounds harsh in the grand scheme of a competition, but whether a penalty makes any difference to a particular player in a particular circumstance misses the point of golf penalties. They are not punishment for behavior and should be imposed where a breach occurs. We are not in the business of assuaging the sensitivities of players. :sbox:

I'm not (and have never acted as) a rules official but agree in that capacity it has to be totally 100% according to the rules for EVERY player.

 

[atticusfinch]

Hoganswinger,

I am talking about rules officials, not onlookers. he has no way of determining the psychological effect of a situation and cannot let it influence his decision to impose a penalty when a breach occurs. That is his job.

 

[woody69]

When you develop a "real advantage"detector let the world know. :mmm:

The rules are written based on "potential advantages" and should be enforced if breached .

Hey, not my words. They were the words of Amanda and I was trying to understand her thinking about not pulling someone up on a penalty simply because (in her opinion) no advantage was gained and they were having a poor round

 

[AmandaJR]

Hey, not my words. They were the words of Amanda and I was trying to understand her thinking about not pulling someone up on a penalty simply because (in her opinion) no advantage was gained and they were having a poor round

Someone is having a mare. Their ball is in a dry hazard. They debate whether they can play out of it and meanwhile, in a fit of pique, kick at a twig 6' away from where their ball lies. I'd say a breach but no advantage gained...

Edit - I'd also add to this same scenario but rather than having a mare we're talking a newcomer, genuine 36 handicap going on 56 handicap who doesn't yet know the rules...

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I played in a competition a few weeks ago, the first at my new(ish) club. The people I played with were very friendly but I didn't know them and was the newbie in the 3 ball. One of the players was having a bad round and walked to hit a shot where his ball was in a divot. He addressed the ball, grounded his club and the ball rolled from the front of the divot to the back. He hit his shot and moaned about the divot. I looked at him and asked if the roll back was an issue. He said no, no guilt in his eyes. He was not hiding the roll, he just didn't see it as a penalty and he just moved on to play his next shot. My thoughts were it was a penalty but as I was unsure, new and he was having a bad score I didn't pursue it. The player was not looking to gain an advantage and was not trying to fool anyone. To the letter of the laws (I think) I should have asked him to add a penalty shot or DQ him if not. Would that make me friends, no? Would it have affected the outcome of the competition, no? Had the score been a good one I genuinely would have suggested asking someone in the clubhouse before he signed his card, I was not marking his card. As it is I let it go. We are amateurs and the day was about enjoyment. I appreciate rules are important in golf but a bit of judgement should be okay at times as well. This will offend some who are adamant about rules but hey ho.

 

[atticusfinch]

As long as you were not officiating a tournament i have no problem with that, except i would tell the guy how he breached the rules. he may thank you some day.

 

[atticusfinch]

Sorry, nothing personal.

 

[atticusfinch]

We are amateurs and the day was about enjoyment.

As an aside, I would point out that the rules are written by and for amateurs. The pros are just a class of expert players who are paid for their golf. We amateurs graciously allow them to use our rules for their events.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Hoganswinger,

I am talking about rules officials, not onlookers. he has no way of determining the psychological effect of a situation and cannot let it influence his decision to impose a penalty when a breach occurs. That is his job.

I agree. Sorry - I wasn't myself referring to a rules official - they have a job to do and it is straightforward - advise on and apply the rules.

I'm thinking more on the player who sees a PP breach. Just because the PP doesn't seem to have gained any advantage at the point of breach, that does not mean to say that he has not gained any advantage in the head - and as the game is much in the mind that advantage in mindset gained can effect his subsequent play. So call it as you see it happen, and not in the context of the hole or round.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Good point. I am aware that he may well repeat what he did and it could cost him a competition. I should have raised it in the bar afterwards in a friendly way but as it was my first competition I felt a little intimidated. Lesson learnt for future.

 

[Foxholer]

Good point. I am aware that he may well repeat what he did and it could cost him a competition. I should have raised it in the bar afterwards in a friendly way but as it was my first competition I felt a little intimidated. Lesson learnt for future.

You can even do so next time you see him and it shouldn't affect anything - as the competition is now closed.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

...He addressed the ball, grounded his club and the ball rolled from the front of the divot to the back...

Unless when grounding his club it is known or virtually certain that he did not cause the ball to move then a penalty. Ball in a divot and club grounded in addressing ball. There are many scenarios when this could cause the ball to move - so you can't be virtually certain he didn't. Penalty I'd say.