Is it worth it?

[chrisd]

I have boned up on rules over the past few years to the extent that I am often asked for the answer to incidents on the course, and where I know I tell, where I don't I either get my rule book out or go away and check here and report back.

Today in a comp there were issues that made me wonder whether knowing more of the rules is really a good idea?

Firstly today, I have played a few times with a really nice guy and a rule question was asked about "but what if" and he said that when playing with others that, where they don't know, they usually apply common sense. I said that you just can't do that, the rules have to be followed literally, cue raised eyebrow but quite understood the need for us all to play under the same rules and someone winning a comp, by just not knowing a rule, whilst not cheating, wasn't fair.

We then had a situation where a ball at rest, moved by the other payer wasn't replaced and I said that he had to play the rule ( I gave him my rule book to check) or DQ if he teed off the next hole without correcting the error - he DQ'd which I understood in the circumstances. The other guy pointed out to me that most of the other groups wouldn't have known the rule and the player would have added the penalty and carried on - and, of course he was right (sadly)

Later the other player wanted to go back to the tee to play a provisional while we continue a search for his ball, I told him the rule but he clearly had done this many times before, luckily I found his ball with seconds to spare!

I am not keen that this thread becomes a dissection of rules but just a simple question based on the maxim "nobody likes a clever dick". I am not sure that people really want to play with a "rules man" and wonder whether I should just claim to not know when an infringement occurs. I stress that I have never fallen out over a rules issue

ANy thoughts ?

 

[nemicu]

The is a distinct difference between actually knowing the rules and their application and knowing the rules and choosing to ignore them.
However, it's not against the rules to be ignorant of them or not knowing the full extent of their use either. For the sake of argument, if all parties are in agreement (but not in agreement knowingly to waive the rules) equity should prevail.
Clearly though, you were not in agreement and you quite rightly pointed out the rules in question. Had you chosen to ignore it (knowing the correct procedure) it's just as bad as knowingly deciding to waive the rules - which is DQ in itself!

 

[Old Skier]

I have boned up on rules over the past few years to the extent that I am often asked for the answer to incidents on the course, and where I know I tell, where I don't I either get my rule book out or go away and check here and report back.

Today in a comp there were issues that made me wonder whether knowing more of the rules is really a good idea?

Firstly today, I have played a few times with a really nice guy and a rule question was asked about "but what if" and he said that when playing with others that, where they don't know, they usually apply common sense. I said that you just can't do that, the rules have to be followed literally, cue raised eyebrow but quite understood the need for us all to play under the same rules and someone winning a comp, by just not knowing a rule, whilst not cheating, wasn't fair.

We then had a situation where a ball at rest, moved by the other payer wasn't replaced and I said that he had to play the rule ( I gave him my rule book to check) or DQ if he teed off the next hole without correcting the error - he DQ'd which I understood in the circumstances. The other guy pointed out to me that most of the other groups wouldn't have known the rule and the player would have added the penalty and carried on - and, of course he was right (sadly)

Later the other player wanted to go back to the tee to play a provisional while we continue a search for his ball, I told him the rule but he clearly had done this many times before, luckily I found his ball with seconds to spare!

I am not keen that this thread becomes a dissection of rules but just a simple question based on the maxim "nobody likes a clever dick". I am not sure that people really want to play with a "rules man" and wonder whether I should just claim to not know when an infringement occurs. I stress that I have never fallen out over a rules issue

ANy thoughts ?

Good post but crack on as you are then perhaps a few more might learn. I personally hate it when I here players come in and complain about the people they are playing with breaking the rules but say nothing and sign their cards.

The other thing that I always find quite strange is the number of mid/lower handicap players who appear not to know the rules.

 

[bladeplayer]

Chris ive found the very same i dont go into be a rules guru of any sort but i like reading up on them and most ive learned , i have learned on here compliments of the very knowledgeable rules experts we are lucky to have , but i find as people find out i have an interest im being asked alot more , ive even found myself in the middle of arguments over rulings ,i always say my interpetation of that would be ... ive even been asked on the course by people im not playing with

i am tending to swerve rules questions now ,now i know some people will say i should get involved if asked , this is my pastime and i dont need to be getting dragged into other peoples rows or disagreements

 

[chrisd]

The is a distinct difference between actually knowing the rules and their application and knowing the rules and choosing to ignore them.
However, it's not against the rules to be ignorant of them or not knowing the full extent of their use either. For the sake of argument, if all parties are in agreement (but not in agreement knowingly to waive the rules) equity should prevail.
Clearly though, you were not in agreement and you quite rightly pointed out the rules in question. Had you chosen to ignore it (knowing the correct procedure) it's just as bad as knowingly deciding to waive the rules - which is DQ in itself!

I knew the rules and gave the advice ..... That isn't the point I was making!

I am asking whether knowing more rules than most is a way to lose playing partners and friends and therefore worth learning more than the most basic of them is counter productive

 

[fundy]

Our club is very very lax on rules knowledge.

Played yesterday in a pairs comp and both of oppos hit it into the ditch behind the green. One of them was wide too so able to drop out not nearer the hole, but holeside. The other guy asked where he could drop and I tried to explain to him that his only options were to go the other side of the hedge or back to the tee. He dropped his ball nearer the hole telling me "its not the ryder cup" before chipping onto the green. Thankfully he didnt end up scoring on the hole (stableford comp) as I didnt really want an argument 2 holes in.

What I did find amusing was a couple of holes later I "mistakenly" tried to nick the honour whilst they were still faffing about only for him to march onto the tee to tell me it was their honour (I bit my tongue but wanted to say "its not the ryder cup") but found it amusing that honour off the tee was more important than playing by the rules.

Probably shouldnt but let his behaviour get to me a little (there were a few other little bits), hes a nice guy but his lax approach to rules is pretty common at our course

 

[nemicu]

I've never believed that knowing the rules was a disadvantage to playing golf - either socially or in competition. If someone really wanted to use that as an excuse to alienate you or form a disagreement of some sort, then they have other issues and are probably not worth playing with on a regular basis.

 

[chrisd]

I've never believed that knowing the rules was a disadvantage to playing golf - either socially or in competition. If someone really wanted to use that as an excuse to alienate you or form a disagreement of some sort, then they have other issues and are probably not worth playing with on a regular basis.

Today's FC's are great guys and no problem. My question is a generalisation on the matter of rules, it would be fine if say Colin or Duncan or Rulefan were on the course and dispensed rules info, but if you and I pull someone on a rule do they appreciate it or are we busybodies?

 

[atticusfinch]

I am asking whether knowing more rules than most is a way to lose playing partners and friends and therefore worth learning more than the most basic of them is counter productive

Probably but what are you going to do...unlearn them?

 

[nemicu]

Today's FC's are great guys and no problem. My question is a generalisation on the matter of rules, it would be fine if say Colin or Duncan or Rulefan were on the course and dispensed rules info, but if you and I pull someone on a rule do they appreciate it or are we busybodies?

That's for them to determine. The rules are based on 3 basic principles: "honesty, integrity and courtesy". If you can't at least try to play to that understanding or respect each other as fellow competitors, then it's a sad state of affairs.
Personally, I don't see why anyone would want to get into an argument over the rules, or maybe frown upon someones knowledge of them - but that's me. As a golfer, I wouldn't have any issues with someone pointing out something I were doing wrong either - that includes the rules or anything else.

 

[rulefan]

However, it's not against the rules to be ignorant

[h=3]6-1. Rules[/h]The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules.

 

[chrisd]

[h=3]6-1. Rules[/h]The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules.

I'd be interested in your view on my OP Rulefan

 

[Foxholer]

I've never believed that knowing the rules was a disadvantage to playing golf - either socially or in competition. If someone really wanted to use that as an excuse to alienate you or form a disagreement of some sort, then they have other issues and are probably not worth playing with on a regular basis.

Very much my approach.

@Chrisd
There'll come a point where instead of seeming a bit of a pedant, you'll actually be consulted - at least by the guys where the message has got across about 'playing by the rules' in comps! That can only be a good thing imo and might that the general awareness of Rules in the club is improved.

 

[chrisd]

Very much my approach.

@Chrisd
There'll come a point where instead of seeming a bit of a pedant, you'll actually be consulted - at least by the guys where the message has got across about 'playing by the rules' in comps! That can only be a good thing imo and might that the general awareness of Rules in the club is improved.

I think several people think that way. I'd explain that when I retire in the next few weeks I'd like to have a go at a rules course

 

[backwoodsman]

To answer the OP, yes it's worth it. I don't think there would be many "falling outs" and a steady trickle of correct rulings and rules advice can only be to the good.

 

[North Mimms]

I'm in no way an expert but I do know the basics (and some other stuff I have picked up on here)

Three times in the last couple of years, playing against the same couple in a knockout, they have wanted to take relief in various situations. These were either situations where relief was not available / allowed, or else the drop they intended to take was way beyond the permissable relief.
In each case I explained what their options were, not what they thought they were.

So why did I end up feeling a nit picking meanie? Their response was along the lines of "oh well if you insist". I don't insist, the rules do.

It also makes me realise that when i have been playing in the same medal as these people, they have most probably been taking generous relief in places that I have not

 

[cliveb]

I find the biggest problem is when I am with someone who has been playing the game much longer than me, who thinks they know a rule and won't even consider the possibility they are wrong. You just can't argue with them.

They may not actually say it, but the obvious attitude you get is "don't try and tell me about the rules, you whippersnapper, I've been playing this game for 50 years". Getting a rule book out of the bag does NOT go down at all well!

 

[rulefan]

I'd be interested in your view on my OP Rulefan

Virtually all the members of my club have got used to the idea of my being a referee.
They all know that in comps of any sort I am a stickler but in casual or social play I don't wear my cap.
However, they know I am happy to answer any questions during a round of 19 holes and welcome my warning them about breaches (actual or potential) during play.
There are some who will persist with their version (eg not marking before identifying) however many times I remind them but everything seems to work very amicably.

 

[Fyldewhite]

I don't think a decent knowledge of the rules is a problem. I certainly wouldn't think anyone would be "off" with me or avoid playing with me for pointing out the odd thing. I do feel it may be costing me shots on occasion when you see what does go on unwittingly out there. But remember a good knowledge of the rules can be a big advantage too and I will take every advantage I can which a lot of others wouldn't be sure of and maybe cost themselves. When asked I try to point them to the rule book and learn to find out for themselves. The R&A rules explorer is brilliant especially for the decisions and interpretation etc. However, you can lead a horse to water....

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Good post @Chris. Had three rules 'incidents' yesterday playing with two guys I know that could have caused 'discussion'

1) FC deciding to ignore an original ball and just play the provisional - when the original could probably have been found;
2) I accidentally moved my ball a good two inches as I nudged it with my finger when picking up my marker - I replaced my ball at the spot it was marked;
3) One of my FCs tee'd up a couple of inches (max) in front of the line - I pulled him up before he played

Now I did feel a bit awkward on 2) and 3). 1) I was OK with until I mentioned to my 2nd FC that our other FC didn't even have to bother looking for his original ball - even though he could probably find it etc etc. Not sure he was sure I was correct so again felt a bit awkward. So yes - knowing the rules can sometimes be a double-edged sword. I think you just have to be clear about your understanding of a ruling in the situation and if you are going to be firm on something then make sure that you are in the right. And if very unsure just invoke rule and procedure for playing out hole with two balls etc.