Is it worth it?

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Last week I had a "yes it is worth it" moment for a change. Friendly knockabout and found myself under a tree on the 18th. Was trying to work out if I had a full swing shot or just punch it out. Reckoned I had the full swing version so took a practice swing and didn't strike said tree. In returning my club from the top of the backswing in a rather cackhanded manner I knocked a leaf off the tree.

PP said "you'd be in trouble if you were out with"...insert names of many rules "experts" here. I explained the rule in regards of one leaf among thousands or not (the former in this case) but she was kind of insistent as in the past others had been with her. I told her that I would dispute any penalty applied in this circumstance and she was keen to know more - refreshing. I checked the "Decisions" book in the changing rooms and couldn't find a set decision BUT in the introduction to the section on improving lie, stance or intended swing etc it clearly stated what I'd been telling her. She was delighted and wrote down the page number for future reference.

On that note...something I was less sure about. My actual practice swing cleared the tree but after the swing I touched it. So even if it were the last leaf on a tree would it have been a penalty?

Leaves in autumn eventually become so tenuously connected to the tree as they are about to fall that the very act of walking into the tree and brushing into a branch could cause a leaf to fall. And indeed the draft from a practice swing could be the feather that broke the camels back. There is a point where a still connected leaf will cause absolutely no impediment to your swing. You get pulled a penalty for causing such a leaf to fall? Nah. Now even for me that is too silly.

 

[evahakool]

the rules are clear cut - you are making them complicated, and from your previous post potentially confusing others and creating myths!

there is no rule that says you can't put holding the flagstick

equally there is no rule that says that you can't hold another club, hold your glove, putter cover etc when putting

there are rules about the unusual use of equipment (14-3), and they would cover the use of any of the above in an unusual manner when putting. In the same way as using another club to steady yourself when putting, you would be in breach of 14-3 if you used the flagstick - this seems very straight forward and logical to me! Given that most people in most conditions are able to stand up without the support of an extra club or stick it is blindly obvious if someone is using the flagstick or their equipment, to achieve this in practice.

Ok thanks, hold my hands up and say I was wrong and will inform the player in question, I really thought this was a penalty.

 

[chrisd]

Last week I had a "yes it is worth it" moment for a change. Friendly knockabout and found myself under a tree on the 18th. Was trying to work out if I had a full swing shot or just punch it out. Reckoned I had the full swing version so took a practice swing and didn't strike said tree. In returning my club from the top of the backswing in a rather cackhanded manner I knocked a leaf off the tree.

PP said "you'd be in trouble if you were out with"...insert names of many rules "experts" here. I explained the rule in regards of one leaf among thousands or not (the former in this case) but she was kind of insistent as in the past others had been with her. I told her that I would dispute any penalty applied in this circumstance and she was keen to know more - refreshing. I checked the "Decisions" book in the changing rooms and couldn't find a set decision BUT in the introduction to the section on improving lie, stance or intended swing etc it clearly stated what I'd been telling her. She was delighted and wrote down the page number for future reference.

On that note...something I was less sure about. My actual practice swing cleared the tree but after the swing I touched it. So even if it were the last leaf on a tree would it have been a penalty?

I applaud you for telling her, and her for being willing to be taught a rule and being willing to pass her new found knowledge to others

 

[ventura]

Last week I had a "yes it is worth it" moment for a change. Friendly knockabout and found myself under a tree on the 18th. Was trying to work out if I had a full swing shot or just punch it out. Reckoned I had the full swing version so took a practice swing and didn't strike said tree. In returning my club from the top of the backswing in a rather cackhanded manner I knocked a leaf off the tree.

PP said "you'd be in trouble if you were out with"...insert names of many rules "experts" here. I explained the rule in regards of one leaf among thousands or not (the former in this case) but she was kind of insistent as in the past others had been with her. I told her that I would dispute any penalty applied in this circumstance and she was keen to know more - refreshing. I checked the "Decisions" book in the changing rooms and couldn't find a set decision BUT in the introduction to the section on improving lie, stance or intended swing etc it clearly stated what I'd been telling her. She was delighted and wrote down the page number for future reference.

On that note...something I was less sure about. My actual practice swing cleared the tree but after the swing I touched it. So even if it were the last leaf on a tree would it have been a penalty?

Had a similar thing this weekend, semi shanked a shot into some trees and couldn't get the club on the ball so had to take relief. Back inline with the flag wasn't feasible and within two club lengths would mean dropping on a poor lie and having to hit out of thick trees so decided to go back to where I played my original shot.

One of the guys in my group, much more experienced and lower handicap was sure that wasn't an option and must have said 4/5 times I couldn't do it. I told him I was pretty sure of the rule and I was going back to play it again and that I'd DQ myself if wrong. Looked up the rule on the next tee and I was correct.

He was happy to have learnt something new but it's surprising that someone had played so long and not known what I'd think is a fairly basic rule.

 

[atticusfinch]

He was happy to have learnt something new but it's surprising that someone had played so long and not known what I'd think is a fairly basic rule.

Clubs are littered with such know-it-alls. "Son. I have been playing golf for 50 years. I think I know the rules." At least your guy admitted learning something new. The ones I know just turn a deaf ear.

 

[Foxholer]

On that note...something I was less sure about. My actual practice swing cleared the tree but after the swing I touched it. So even if it were the last leaf on a tree would it have been a penalty?

No difference whether it's the last leaf on the tree or not. The question to be asked/answered was 'did it improve your lie, stance or intended swing'. And I'd be certain that the answer was 'No', so no penalty.

 

[ventura]

Clubs are littered with such know-it-alls. "Son. I have been playing golf for 50 years. I think I know the rules." At least your guy admitted learning something new. The ones I know just turn a deaf ear.

I think he was genuinely trying to stop me being disqualified, happy I stuck with what I thought though rather than go with the more experienced player.

 

[atticusfinch]

I think he was genuinely trying to stop me being disqualified, happy I stuck with what I thought though rather than go with the more experienced player.

If i read your story correctly you went with the stroke and distance option in rule 28. He should be told stroke and distance is always an option under all relief rules.

Tell him the story about re-doing a putt that rolls off the green into a deep bunker. Most people think that is queer and wrong, but it is only stroke and distance under rule 28.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Had a similar thing this weekend, semi shanked a shot into some trees and couldn't get the club on the ball so had to take relief. Back inline with the flag wasn't feasible and within two club lengths would mean dropping on a poor lie and having to hit out of thick trees so decided to go back to where I played my original shot.

One of the guys in my group, much more experienced and lower handicap was sure that wasn't an option and must have said 4/5 times I couldn't do it. I told him I was pretty sure of the rule and I was going back to play it again and that I'd DQ myself if wrong. Looked up the rule on the next tee and I was correct.

He was happy to have learnt something new but it's surprising that someone had played so long and not known what I'd think is a fairly basic rule.

Quite simple one to remember is that we can take Stroke & Distance under ANY circumstance at ANY time - whether we NEED to take it or not. After playing a shot I might end up in the middle of the fairway and 50yds from the green with a completely clear, straightforward and unimpeded shot in - but if I so choose I can take Stroke & Distance - not many reasons I might actually do this - but I can if I want.

 

[rulefan]

As the Rule says - At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

A guy at my previous club was a rules guru and used that to terrify and intimidate everyone else on the course. He sucked all the fun out of the game as he was desperate to DQ people whenever he could. It wasn't the fact that he knew the rules that was the issue but how he dispensed his knowledge. With regards to the original post you are merely answering questions with factual responses. You are not getting joy out of informing people that they have done something incorrectly. There is a big difference there. It is a tricky situation and there is no simple answer but as long as you answer with a smile not a smirk people will be okay with your advice.

 

[AmandaJR]

A guy at my previous club was a rules guru and used that to terrify and intimidate everyone else on the course. He sucked all the fun out of the game as he was desperate to DQ people whenever he could. It wasn't the fact that he knew the rules that was the issue but how he dispensed his knowledge. With regards to the original post you are merely answering questions with factual responses. You are not getting joy out of informing people that they have done something incorrectly. There is a big difference there. It is a tricky situation and there is no simple answer but as long as you answer with a smile not a smirk people will be okay with your advice.

Perfect description of a few at our place. Amazing how many drop-outs there are in drawn comps when said rules gurus are playing!

 

[chrisd]

Perfect description of a few at our place. Amazing how many drop-outs there are in drawn comps when said rules gurus are playing!

That's what worries me explain the rule to someone and they don't care to play with you again because YOU cost them shots!

 

[AmandaJR]

That's what worries me explain the rule to someone and they don't care to play with you again because YOU cost them shots!

I hear what you say BUT that's different to those that are actively seeking to penalise a player and get obvious pleasure from doing so. It's a tough one and, if I'm 100% honest (which might get me a DQ!) there are instances when I've seen a breach of the rules which is not deliberate and from which no real advantage is gained. Would I call it?? If the player is already hacking it round and having a nightmare then probably not but a quiet word to the wise afterwards would be my preferred course of action all things being considered.

 

[North Mimms]

That's what worries me explain the rule to someone and they don't care to play with you again because YOU cost them shots!

There can be times whenever having someone who knows the rules can be a benefit. I often play with new players who are unsure what to do when ball has gone into water hazard or is unplayable elsewhere.
They might remember the option they took last time, but be stumped because it's not going to "help" this time. Explaining what their other options are, without recommending any, can be of benefit.
As described above, going back S&D can often be a good move and is often the option that gets forgotten.

 

[Foxholer]

A guy at my previous club was a rules guru and used that to terrify and intimidate everyone else on the course. He sucked all the fun out of the game as he was desperate to DQ people whenever he could. It wasn't the fact that he knew the rules that was the issue but how he dispensed his knowledge. With regards to the original post you are merely answering questions with factual responses. You are not getting joy out of informing people that they have done something incorrectly. There is a big difference there. It is a tricky situation and there is no simple answer but as long as you answer with a smile not a smirk people will be okay with your advice.

Except they are normally wrong!

I've generated quite a few contributions to Captain's Charity - and a few free Beers for me - from fools whose Rules knowledge is 'mythical'! Getting FCs DQ-ed is a stupid thing to do - and is to be avoided wherever possible! Though if their action warrants it, it may be inevitable. Flagging for later clarification is the proper method - and maybe playing a 2nd ball can help.

 

[Colin L]

The idea of being excitedly on the lookout for infringements so that I can pounce appals me. That's not even my idea of the job when formally refereeing. While of course being obliged to intervene if a breach of a rule occurs and being on the lookout for any cheating, the main aim is to help players through situations when they are unsure of how to proceed. Sure, that may often involve a penalty, but the primary focus is to make sure they get out of the situation within the rules and can get on with their game. And the great thing about the Rules of Golf is that a player need never be stuck without a way of proceeding: there is always a way out, even if expensive, but sometimes it needs someone with a good knowledge of the rules to know how to get to the nearest exit.

 

[atticusfinch]

The last thing a competent official wants to do is hurt a player's chance to win the competition. Whether it is an extra stroke or DQ he should be reluctant to do it and make sure of his facts but not flinch if it is appropriate, and then never apologize for doing it.

These other people i am hearing about are on some kind of power trip to make up for a life as a weakling. They are best utilized as score computers and leave the rules work to someone else.

 

[NST]

This thread and an incident at the weekend has resulted in me putting a rule book in my golf bag.

 

[Colin L]

This thread and an incident at the weekend has resulted in me putting a rule book in my golf bag.

Did you read it before it went into your bag.