Is it worth it?

[atticusfinch]

The decision calls it "advice given on request."

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

see this is where I would see the word 'give' as offering, whereas answering a question is 'responding'. I also might be lying and say 3 iron when it was a wedge

Also known as "giving as response", which in my eyes would make it giving, and fall foul of the rule

 

[Foxholer]

After playing an approach shot I was asked yesterday by a FC what I had used - he hadn't played his approach. I said that I couldn't tell him. Then had a guilt feeling as suddenly thought that the club I used would be public information and so was just being overly competitive and a bit if a git - so I told him - and added that that wouldn't be much use to him as he hit the ball a lot further than I. Must look back on this and other advice threads to see if I should have told him.

The 'correct' answer was your 'couldn't tell him' with the addition of 'and asking before we have both played is actually a 2 shot Penalty!'

I believe it's also a 2SP if you do tell him, but AF's reluctance to say makes me think there might be circumstances where that's not the case! Is that so?

He is, of course, allowed to check your bag - without moving things - and may 'discover' the answer without having to ask!

 

[atticusfinch]

Never ask and never tell but there is nothing to stop you holding the club in such a way that it makes the club selected very visible to any one that may be tempted to ask.

Everybody seems intent on finding semantic ways around this rule. Remember the rule says "give" advice. It does not say "verbally give advice." Advice can be given by conduct too if it is intended to convey a message. It comes down to whether the conduct is intended to convey information. I think holding the club as you say is giving advice. Displaying it prominently in your bag without holding it may be.

UI hope this is just an exercise and nobody seeks to do this in play?

 

[CMAC]

having only been asked a couple of times in comps I've always just responded with "you know its a penalty to ask advice" one was met with "F off" the other time there was stoney silence the whole round and a limp handshake at the end, what a waste of 3.5hrs of my time.


So now unless its blatant and continuous I 'dont hear' the one off request an FC made to another FC especially if they are hacking their way around.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

having only been asked a couple of times in comps I've always just responded with "you know its a penalty to ask advice" one was met with "F off" the other time there was stoney silence the whole round and a limp handshake at the end, what a waste of 3.5hrs of my time.


So now unless its blatant and continuous I 'dont hear' the one off request an FC made to another FC especially if they are hacking their way around.

I have never played with the lad before and he is relatively new to the game (maybe 3-4yrs). It was odd - I don't think I've ever been asked so obviously - and he did seem genuinely interested in what me and other FC were clubbing as we went round - and not from his own clubbing point of view. When I mentioned why I couldn't say, his response was that he was just interested as whatever club I'd used I'd hit the shot so well. I think he played his shot using a wedge or 9i - from about same distance I used a 7i.

 

[Foxholer]

I have never played with the lad before and he is relatively new to the game (maybe 3-4yrs). It was odd - I don't think I've ever been asked so obviously - and he did seem genuinely interested in what me and other FC were clubbing as we went round - and not from his own clubbing point of view. When I mentioned why I couldn't say, his response was that he was just interested as whatever club I'd used I'd hit the shot so well. I think he played his shot using a wedge or 9i - from about same distance I used a 7i.

In that case, mention that there is no restriction after you have both played - as it's not advice, merely information/facts.

 

[CMAC]

In that case, mention that there is no restriction after you have both played - as it's not advice, merely information/facts.

which is what I do frequently after we have all played, especially if it looked like he played a 7 iron on a 193yd par3 that I had just creamed a 4 iron short allegedly

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

which is what I do frequently after we have all played, especially if it looked like he played a 7 iron on a 193yd par3 that I had just creamed a 4 iron short allegedly

Indeed - later in the round I hit a 7i approach (a little short) - he was standing maybe 15yds from me assessing his shot and he looked at me and said out loud ' looks a bit far for a wedge'

I remained silent - he changed his club and hit the green (lucky bounce). I chipped on and got a 5 - he three putted.

 

[North Mimms]

Pointless people asking me what I hit. Bears no resembalnce to what others need for the same shot

 

[palindromicbob]

Everybody seems intent on finding semantic ways around this rule. Remember the rule says "give" advice. It does not say "verbally give advice." Advice can be given by conduct too if it is intended to convey a message. It comes down to whether the conduct is intended to convey information. I think holding the club as you say is giving advice. Displaying it prominently in your bag without holding it may be.

UI hope this is just an exercise and nobody seeks to do this in play?

I'll just point you to part of decision 8-1/10

Information obtained by observation is not advice.

There is an very easy way round the rule though. Employ one caddy for the group if there is no restriction on them that is.

 

[atticusfinch]

Obtaining information by observation is not the point. My point was giving information by displaying a club in a suggestive way intended to convey information. No penalty for obtaining such info, but what about for giving it? IOW: "here is the club I used on the last hole,"

 

[palindromicbob]

Obtaining information by observation is not the point. My point was giving information by displaying a club in a suggestive way intended to convey information. No penalty for obtaining such info, but what about for giving it? IOW: "here is the club I used on the last hole,"

No different that leaving you bag uncovered and particularly close to your FC's. They can look if they choose to .

 

[atticusfinch]

My point was based on an earlier post where he wondered if intentionally holding the club in a manner that would attract your attention and convey info that would otherwise be advice (the club used). I have had that discussion many times and believe the intention to communicate information is more the issue than the means you choose.

So here i was just asking/opining that displaying your club in the bag in a manner intended to attract attention and convey information might be 'giving' advice.

 

[evahakool]

I have boned up on rules over the past few years to the extent that I am often asked for the answer to incidents on the course, and where I know I tell, where I don't I either get my rule book out or go away and check here and report back.

Today in a comp there were issues that made me wonder whether knowing more of the rules is really a good idea?

Firstly today, I have played a few times with a really nice guy and a rule question was asked about "but what if" and he said that when playing with others that, where they don't know, they usually apply common sense. I said that you just can't do that, the rules have to be followed literally, cue raised eyebrow but quite understood the need for us all to play under the same rules and someone winning a comp, by just not knowing a rule, whilst not cheating, wasn't fair.

We then had a situation where a ball at rest, moved by the other payer wasn't replaced and I said that he had to play the rule ( I gave him my rule book to check) or DQ if he teed off the next hole without correcting the error - he DQ'd which I understood in the circumstances. The other guy pointed out to me that most of the other groups wouldn't have known the rule and the player would have added the penalty and carried on - and, of course he was right (sadly)

Later the other player wanted to go back to the tee to play a provisional while we continue a search for his ball, I told him the rule but he clearly had done this many times before, luckily I found his ball with seconds to spare!

I am not keen that this thread becomes a dissection of rules but just a simple question based on the maxim "nobody likes a clever dick". I am not sure that people really want to play with a "rules man" and wonder whether I should just claim to not know when an infringement occurs. I stress that I have never fallen out over a rules issue

ANy thoughts ?

Interesting thread, whilst most golfers would be grateful of help with rulesI'm sure that there will be some that think you are being to strict with the rules and come across as a " clever dick" which can put some people off from pulling players up on rules infringements.

Take yesterday as an example,I played in a comp. and one of my f/c tapped in a put whilst holding the flag on the green, as we were having a enjoyable round I didn't want to pull him up on this as he might have felt I was being a "clever dick". whilst walking to the next tee I told him of the ruling for future reference .

Now I know some will say I should have told him it was a penalty straight away, and that's the quandary that I'm sure other players have had also of not coming across as some kind of "clever dick"

Perhaps more needs to be done by clubs to insure players have a good grasp of the rules before entering competitions.

Having looked at the results last night I see that my f/c finished 4th in the h/c div. thus denying another player of a prize because I didn't call the penalty (we were playing in a 3ball and the other f/c was marking his card)

 

[Foxholer]

Interesting thread, whilst most golfers would be grateful of help with rulesI'm sure that there will be some that think you are being to strict with the rules and come across as a " clever dick" which can put some people off from pulling players up on rules infringements.

Take yesterday as an example,I played in a comp. and one of my f/c tapped in a put whilst holding the flag on the green, as we were having a enjoyable round I didn't want to pull him up on this as he might have felt I was being a "clever dick". whilst walking to the next tee I told him of the ruling for future reference .

Now I know some will say I should have told him it was a penalty straight away, and that's the quandary that I'm sure other players have had also of not coming across as some kind of "clever dick"

Perhaps more needs to be done by clubs to insure players have a good grasp of the rules before entering competitions.

Having looked at the results last night I see that my f/c finished 4th in the h/c div. thus denying another player of a prize because I didn't call the penalty (we were playing in a 3ball and the other f/c was marking his card)

No problem tapping in while holding the flag - unless ball hits it or flag is used to support the player during stroke. Another myth!

So better 'untell' the FC next time you see him.

And while it's tricky, you really should 'flag' such issues (no penalty in this case, but worth checking back at clubhouse). Otherwise you are 'agreeing to waive Rules' - for which the penalty is DQ. As a FC, I believe you have a responsibility for/to the rest of the field. Of course that logic caused Sandy Lyle and Nick Faldo to have a bit of a fallout!

 

[evahakool]

No problem tapping in while holding the flag - unless ball hits it or flag is used to support the player. Another myth!

So better 'untell' the FC next time you see him.

I know there is no problem tapping in whilst holding the flag but as I said he was resting the flag on the green.

 

[Foxholer]

Ah! Interpreted the 'holding' to be simply holding cf 'resting'/supporting. Yes, 2SP due.

 

[rulefan]

I know there is no problem tapping in whilst holding the flag but as I said he was resting the flag on the green.

Do you mean he was leaning on the flagstick using it as a support to steady himself?
Or was he just allowing the lower end to rest on the putting surface?

In the latter case there is no breach.

 

[chrisd]

I played yesterday and pulled a drive on a hole with OOB all down the left. It was a friendly 4bbb and as I had played a provisional and thought I was oob I didn't bother to walk where the first ball had gone. One of our opponents shouted that he had found a ball and I wandered over and confirmed it was my first ball sitting in a place where I had not much chance of a recovery.

He asked if I was going to declare it lost? I told him the rule and carried on accordingly. I wouldn't have minded had exactly the same scenario not happened whilst playing in a comp with him about 2 weeks ago and I went through the rule with him that time too - is it worth it?