Is it worth it?

[chrisd]

You seem to take offense at my posts as criticism. Far from it, I applaud any effort to master the rules and do not belittle anyone who makes mistakes during the process. I'm just terse, like the rules.

One quality a rules person must have or develop is a thick skin.

I really haven't taken any offence, far from it, I thank everyone who's given input to this thread and thank you.

 

[atticusfinch]

Good. Don't mean to offend. :clap:

 

[chrisd]

Good. Don't mean to offend. :clap:

No offence taken but I do get the thick skin bit!

I had a long argument today with someone who insisted that if anyone plays a provisional ball and then finds their original ball in a water hazard they have to abandon the ball in the hazard and continue with the provisional. I sent him a copy of rule 27-2,c but I still don't think he'll agree

I wonder whether it's worth it!

 

[atticusfinch]

I'd be interested in his authority for that.

 

[chrisd]

I'd be interested in his authority for that.

He couldn't and didn't have any because it's not right, but was as adamant that it was correct as I was, that it wasn't.

He referred to an incident involving Greg Norman some years back where Norman DQ'd after playing a provisional when he declared the original ball had gone in the hazard, he DQ'd because he played the original ball rather than proceeding under the rules covering water hazards where the provisional becomes the ball in play

My mate is just mixing himself up but refuses to accept that I checked here before confirming and he just knows I'm wrong :thup: we went through several examples on our course but he just wouldn't have it so I sent rule 27-2 c for home to read

 

[Foxholer]

Chris.

Can I suggest that when you think you might be about to get into an argument, you change tack and put a wager - of something like£10 to Captain's Charity and a Pint - on the outcome. Of course only on those where you are certain you are correct!

After a while, with no contributions from yourself, the message might get through.

It worked for me in a Swindle 'full' of out-of-date but adamant ex-Captains!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not quite. He may deem it unplayable. He doesn't have to declare anything. Subtle difference.

Deem
To have as an opinion; judge: regard as; consider:

Declare
To announce; make known formally or officially; state emphatically or authoritatively;

Which is why I guess we can 'invoke'/take S&D in any circumstance regardless of whether or not the ball is unplayable - even although we mostly use S&D in circumstances where the ball is unplayable the 'unplayable' is actually irrelevant

 

[chrisd]

Chris.

Can I suggest that when you think you might be about to get into an argument, you change tack and put a wager - of something like£10 to Captain's Charity and a Pint - on the outcome. Of course only on those where you are certain you are correct!

After a while, with no contributions from yourself, the message might get through.

It worked for me in a Swindle 'full' of out-of-date but adamant ex-Captains!

I tried the "what do you want to put on it" stance. My playing partner told him he was wrong and the Captain joined us and said that he couldn't see how he would tee off one of our par 3's, then play a provisional as he lost site of where it may lie, he finds it 6" in a hazard but not be allowed to play it because he had played a provisional, even common sense would say it was wrong!

I gave up but sent him the rule by email

 

[Foxholer]

I tried the "what do you want to put on it" stance. My playing partner told him he was wrong and the Captain joined us and said that he couldn't see how he would tee off one of our par 3's, then play a provisional as he lost site of where it may lie, he finds it 6" in a hazard but not be allowed to play it because he had played a provisional, even common sense would say it was wrong!

I gave up but sent him the rule by email

Confusing!
As I see it....
1. If he played the Provisional because he thought it might be lost (or OB), then finding it in the water hazard is no issue - the Provisional ball is ignored and play continues as if he never played one.

2. If, he played the 'Provisional' because he (had a brain fart and) thought the ball was in the Water Hazard, then the he has simply invoked 27-1 and put a new ball into play - the original is Lost! Any further play with the original would be with a wrong ball (2SP) and must be corrected before teeing off on next hole.

Norman followed (2)! Then made a 2nd blunder. He picked up the 'Provisional' which was actually the ball in play and continued with the original, a wrong ball! After being informed of the error and consequences, he simply DQ-ed (himself?), figuring his chance of making the cut were gone anyway.

 

[chrisd]

Confusing!
As I see it....
1. If he played the Provisional because he thought it might be lost (or OB), then finding it in the water hazard is no issue - the Provisional ball is ignored and play continues as if he never played one.

2. If, he played the 'Provisional' because he (had a brain fart and) thought the ball was in the Water Hazard, then the he has simply invoked 27-1 and put a new ball into play - the original is Lost! Any further play with the original would be with a wrong ball (2SP) and must be corrected before teeing off on next hole.

Norman followed (2)! Then made a 2nd blunder. He picked up the 'Provisional' which was actually the ball in play and continued with the original, a wrong ball! After being informed of the error and consequences, he simply DQ-ed (himself?), figuring his chance of making the cut were gone anyway.

We did the actual case to death on here but I guess I should have given up and left him to come unstuck in a comp. I told him that I'd not sign his card if he played with me and acted in the way he suggested

 

[bladeplayer]

Chris , i think you have cursed me by starting this thread mate ..

I am more and more coming to the belief that knowing the rules (and i wouldnt be aswell up as most on here) is a bad idea when asked in the club house . .

I asked a rule question here and got an answer ("was i right" thread) 2 people have since came up to me to tell me they think i may be wrong on that rule , i have asked them how knocking a leaf/leaves off away from your line of swing is improving your swing or stance , they dont know the answer but still think im wrong on that one as you cant knock even 1 leaf ???? AAAAAAAAAGH


from now on , my reply will be , wouldnt be sure on that one you may ask the comp sec to check

 

[palindromicbob]

Chris , i think you have cursed me by starting this thread mate ..

I am more and more coming to the belief that knowing the rules (and i wouldnt be aswell up as most on here) is a bad idea when asked in the club house . .

I asked a rule question here and got an answer ("was i right" thread) 2 people have since came up to me to tell me they think i may be wrong on that rule , i have asked them how knocking a leaf/leaves off away from your line of swing is improving your swing or stance , they dont know the answer but still think im wrong on that one as you cant knock even 1 leaf ???? AAAAAAAAAGH


from now on , my reply will be , wouldnt be sure on that one you may ask the comp sec to check

Nice safe reply Bill. Thing is though if you know were to point them they can find out for themselves and you can stand aside knowing you are correct. The problem is that some of the rules are often read in part rather than as a whole and the decisions add clarification but aren't as readily available as the rule book.

If anyone argues with you about it then you have the stuff to back you up.
Reading this rule in full for the situation

A player must not improve or allow to be improved: the area of his intended stance or swing, by any of the following actions: moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),

What the people arguing against you are forgetting is what is meant by improve and this is clarified by decision 13-2/0.5

 

[chrisd]

Chris , i think you have cursed me by starting this thread mate ..

I am more and more coming to the belief that knowing the rules (and i wouldnt be aswell up as most on here) is a bad idea when asked in the club house . .

I asked a rule question here and got an answer ("was i right" thread) 2 people have since came up to me to tell me they think i may be wrong on that rule , i have asked them how knocking a leaf/leaves off away from your line of swing is improving your swing or stance , they dont know the answer but still think im wrong on that one as you cant knock even 1 leaf ???? AAAAAAAAAGH


from now on , my reply will be , wouldnt be sure on that one you may ask the comp sec to check

Unfortunately, I reckon the "knocking down leaves on the backswing" rule is pretty much the hardest to apply as its open to some interpretation. My understanding is, if it's a tree with thousands of small leaves, a few falling wont improve the swing path, but, if its a tree with only a few very large leaves then one down is possibly important and penable.

It is a problem though Blade in trying to give answers "on the hoof" and unless your certain it pays to always sy that you'll look, check and come back with an answer

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

After playing an approach shot I was asked yesterday by a FC what I had used - he hadn't played his approach. I said that I couldn't tell him. Then had a guilt feeling as suddenly thought that the club I used would be public information and so was just being overly competitive and a bit if a git - so I told him - and added that that wouldn't be much use to him as he hit the ball a lot further than I. Must look back on this and other advice threads to see if I should have told him.

 

[CMAC]

After playing an approach shot I was asked yesterday by a FC what I had used - he hadn't played his approach. I said that I couldn't tell him. Then had a guilt feeling as suddenly thought that the club I used would be public information and so was just being overly competitive and a bit if a git - so I told him - and added that that wouldn't be much use to him as he hit the ball a lot further than I. Must look back on this and other advice threads to see if I should have told him.

I believe you can tell him anything you want, the onus is on him for asking and so will the penalty!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I believe you can tell him anything you want, the onus is on him for asking and so will the penalty!

ah - OK - so it's the seeking or offering of advice that's the issue and not any 'responsive' giving of it.

 

[atticusfinch]

I'd be careful with that. The rule says the player may not "give "advice. answering a question is giving. See dec 8-1/25

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'd be careful with that. The rule says the player may not "give "advice. answering a question is giving. See dec 8-1/25

Why at first I didn't tell him the club I'd used.

 

[CMAC]

I'd be careful with that. The rule says the player may not "give "advice. answering a question is giving. See dec 8-1/25

see this is where I would see the word 'give' as offering, whereas answering a question is 'responding'. I also might be lying and say 3 iron when it was a wedge

 

[palindromicbob]

After playing an approach shot I was asked yesterday by a FC what I had used - he hadn't played his approach. I said that I couldn't tell him. Then had a guilt feeling as suddenly thought that the club I used would be public information and so was just being overly competitive and a bit if a git - so I told him - and added that that wouldn't be much use to him as he hit the ball a lot further than I. Must look back on this and other advice threads to see if I should have told him.

Never ask and never tell but there is nothing to stop you holding the club in such a way that it makes the club selected very visible to any one that may be tempted to ask.