Is it worth it?

What worried me and caused my OP was my FC (not the one who had breached the rule) saying, quite casually that most of the other groups would have penalised the player and not suggested he DQ if he didn't put the matter right before he tees off the next hole, as they wouldn't have known the full rule.

It's easy for a player to say that he's pleased that someone knew and at least the right thing was done, but I wondered whether he would rather have been playing with someone who didn't know and then, after 2 holes, would still be in the competition
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Good post @Chris. Had three rules 'incidents' yesterday playing with two guys I know that could have caused 'discussion'

1) FC deciding to ignore an original ball and just play the provisional - when the original could probably have been found;
2) I accidentally moved my ball a good two inches as I nudged it with my finger when picking up my marker - I replaced my ball at the spot it was marked;
3) One of my FCs tee'd up a couple of inches (max) in front of the line - I pulled him up before he played

Now I did feel a bit awkward on 2) and 3). 1) I was OK with until I mentioned to my 2nd FC that our other FC didn't even have to bother looking for his original ball - even though he could probably find it etc etc. Not sure he was sure I was correct so again felt a bit awkward. So yes - knowing the rules can sometimes be a double-edged sword. I think you just have to be clear about your understanding of a ruling in the situation and if you are going to be firm on something then make sure that you are in the right. And if very unsure just invoke rule and procedure for playing out hole with two balls etc.
Click to expand...

And just realised that there was a fourth incident yesterday.

One of my FCs had a long difficult fast downhill putt and he putted off the green and way down the slope that leads up to the green. He had a really tricky shot back - he executed a brilliant long putt up the slope to the hole and so got down in two from where he was - but he could easily have taken four to get down. When he had holed out I mentioned he could have taken S&D and replayed his first putt. He looked at me curiously as if I was mad but said nothing.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
And just realised that there was a fourth incident yesterday.

One of my FCs had a long difficult fast downhill putt and he putted off the green and way down the slope that leads up to the green. He had a really tricky shot back - he executed a brilliant long putt up the slope to the hole and so got down in two from where he was - but he could easily have taken four to get down. When he had holed out I mentioned he could have taken S&D and replayed his first putt. He looked at me curiously as if I was mad but said nothing.
Click to expand...

I think I would have probably done the same.
 
chrisd said:
ANy thoughts ?
Click to expand...

"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship. - Patrick Campbell"

as Rulefan has posted, so much depends on how you approach it within the club environment. That definitely goes in phases in my experience - initially (some) people can react badly when they are seen to have 'got it wrong', then you get a phase where you get ambushed every time you go into the bar as everyone raises everything in every game and tries to catch you out...then it all settles down to generally well structured questions raised at the right time in the right way (and with luck correctly handled!)

I'd also point out that with a little time and effort you bring the Local Rules, Conditions of Competitions and course set up/marking into line which reduces issues no end - as well as making it easier to rule clearly.
 
duncan mackie said:
"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship. - Patrick Campbell"

as Rulefan has posted, so much depends on how you approach it within the club environment. That definitely goes in phases in my experience - initially (some) people can react badly when they are seen to have 'got it wrong', then you get a phase where you get ambushed every time you go into the bar as everyone raises everything in every game and tries to catch you out...then it all settles down to generally well structured questions raised at the right time in the right way (and with luck correctly handled!)

I'd also point out that with a little time and effort you bring the Local Rules, Conditions of Competitions and course set up/marking into line which reduces issues no end - as well as making it easier to rule clearly.
Click to expand...

Great post Duncan!
 
nemicu said:
However, it's not against the rules to be ignorant of them or not knowing the full extent of their use either.
Click to expand...

rulefan said:
6-1. Rules

The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules.
Click to expand...

That's not what I said and it's not what I meant.
If it really were against the rules to not know them, then pretty much 99% of the golfing population would be subject to penalty the moment they teed off!
The point the rules make in 6-1, is that it is in the players own best interests to learn and know the rules, because nobody else is responsible for their actions. A breach is still a breach whether or not anyone knew it occurred - thankfully sometimes players like the OP are on hand to advise and point out as necessary.
I think some of the howlers by professional players in competition are justification enough to say that ignorance of the rules is not a penalty in itself, but ignorance is not an excuse to avoid the appropriate ruling (see TV call-ins for instance). It's still possible to be completely and blissfully unaware of the full extent of the rules and still complete a round without penalty - if no breach occurs.
By the same token, it's still possible to know nearly all the rules and still make a breach without knowing it occurred in the first instance.
This is why the rules states it is the players and caddies responsibility to know the rules - NOT the player SHALL know the rules.
The difference is described above.
 
nemicu said:
That's not what I said and it's not what I meant.
If it really were against the rules to not know them, then pretty much 99% of the golfing population would be subject to penalty the moment they teed off!
The point the rules make in 6-1, is that it is in the players own best interests to learn and know the rules, because nobody else is responsible for their actions. A breach is still a breach whether or not anyone knew it occurred - thankfully sometimes players like the OP are on hand to advise and point out as necessary.
I think some of the howlers by professional players in competition are justification enough to say that ignorance of the rules is not a penalty in itself, but ignorance is not an excuse to avoid the appropriate ruling (see TV call-ins for instance). It's still possible to be completely and blissfully unaware of the full extent of the rules and still complete a round without penalty - if no breach occurs.
By the same token, it's still possible to know nearly all the rules and still make a breach without knowing it occurred in the first instance.
This is why the rules states it is the players and caddies responsibility to know the rules - NOT the player SHALL know the rules.
The difference is described above.
Click to expand...

I think that you may be missing the point of the rule. It's the same as the maxim in English law "ignorance of the law is no excuse" so in making Rule 6-1 no one can claim that they didn't know the rule when, or if, they transgress. Whilst it would be better if everyone knew all the rules, a player simply can't shrug and say " I wasn't aware of that rule" if they get called for breaking it and so not be penalised.

There are very few people, in reality, who know, and can fathom the rules of golf in their entirety but I don't believe 6-1 does anything but make the player and caddy responsible for their own actions.
 
Interesting thread. I play regularly with a few chaps who know that I know more about the Rules than they do. If they are unsure they will ask me what to do and if I don't know or I'm not sure we check the Rule book if it needs sorting there and then, or check at the end of the round. Never a problem if I explain they can't do something they thought they could and now and again I have been the bringer of good tidings (e.g. procedure for a ball lost in GUR/casual water, of which we had some very large areas in the winter). That definitely puts you in their good books. ;)
 
MashieNiblick said:
Interesting thread. I play regularly with a few chaps who know that I know more about the Rules than they do. If they are unsure they will ask me what to do and if I don't know or I'm not sure we check the Rule book if it needs sorting there and then, or check at the end of the round. Never a problem if I explain they can't do something they thought they could and now and again I have been the bringer of good tidings (e.g. procedure for a ball lost in GUR/casual water, of which we had some very large areas in the winter). That definitely puts you in their good books. ;)
Click to expand...

For sure Mashie, I've had that many a time too. It may be I'm thinking too deeply and in actual fact people really do want proper advice. I have not had any arguments and don't, on the course dispense un requested advice unless its necessary
 
nemicu said:
That's not what I said and it's not what I meant.
If it really were against the rules to not know them, then pretty much 99% of the golfing population would be subject to penalty the moment they teed off!
The point the rules make in 6-1, is that it is in the players own best interests to learn and know the rules, because nobody else is responsible for their actions. A breach is still a breach whether or not anyone knew it occurred - thankfully sometimes players like the OP are on hand to advise and point out as necessary.
I think some of the howlers by professional players in competition are justification enough to say that ignorance of the rules is not a penalty in itself, but ignorance is not an excuse to avoid the appropriate ruling (see TV call-ins for instance). It's still possible to be completely and blissfully unaware of the full extent of the rules and still complete a round without penalty - if no breach occurs.
By the same token, it's still possible to know nearly all the rules and still make a breach without knowing it occurred in the first instance.
This is why the rules states it is the players and caddies responsibility to know the rules - NOT the player SHALL know the rules.
The difference is described above.
Click to expand...

chrisd said:
I think that you may be missing the point of the rule. It's the same as the maxim in English law "ignorance of the law is no excuse" so in making Rule 6-1 no one can claim that they didn't know the rule when, or if, they transgress. Whilst it would be better if everyone knew all the rules, a player simply can't shrug and say " I wasn't aware of that rule" if they get called for breaking it and so not be penalised.

There are very few people, in reality, who know, and can fathom the rules of golf in their entirety but I don't believe 6-1 does anything but make the player and caddy responsible for their own actions.
Click to expand...

I thought I made this clear enough here (in bold)? But rule 6-1 still is a word to the wise to player and caddie - know the rules or you may come unstuck unnecessarily. Like our hapless pro friends we see on TV taking a wrong drop and hitting the wrong ball from time to time.
 
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Just getting back to one of the original scenarios for a min,

last week I was playing a three ball. My tee shot landed in the semi. It was an unobstructed view and all three of us saw it down, and all had the same line. Reloading never even came to mind. We get up to the landing spot, more or less standing on each other's toes and yet there was no sign. We had a good look but to no avail. I'm not sure how long we looked and it may of reached the 5 minute mark before I went back the tee and had another go. As it was a medal, I presumed that was the only option?

Thanks for any replies and sorry for gegging in on a thread well above my head :thup:
 
davemc1 said:
Just getting back to one of the original scenarios for a min,

last week I was playing a three ball. My tee shot landed in the semi. It was an unobstructed view and all three of us saw it down, and all had the same line. Reloading never even came to mind. We get up to the landing spot, more or less standing on each other's toes and yet there was no sign. We had a good look but to no avail. I'm not sure how long we looked and it may of reached the 5 minute mark before I went back the tee and had another go. As it was a medal, I presumed that was the only option?

Thanks for any replies and sorry for gegging in on a thread well above my head :thup:
Click to expand...

I'm afraid it was your only option. Once the 5 minute search for it was up it must be deemed as lost and the lonely walk back to the tee is the only place you can play from. Hope it wasn't a card wrecker.
 
nemicu said:
I'm afraid it was your only option. Once the 5 minute search for it was up it must be deemed as lost and the lonely walk back to the tee is the only place you can play from. Hope it wasn't a card wrecker.
Click to expand...

No, card was already shot to pieces by then (think it was on the 6th as well!!)

am I right in saying then that the ball has to be declared lost before the lonely walk back, and the op's pp was trying to generate a best of both worlds scenario? Therein breaking the rule?

Thanks again :thup:
 
davemc1 said:
No, card was already shot to pieces by then (think it was on the 6th as well!!)

am I right in saying then that the ball has to be declared lost before the lonely walk back, and the op's pp was trying to generate a best of both worlds scenario? Therein breaking the rule?

Thanks again :thup:
Click to expand...

You're right in saying that the ball has to be declared as lost if you can't find it within a 5 minute search. Then the walk back to the tee is your only option.
I'm not sure what you're saying about your opponents though. It's up to you to decide if your ball is findable from the tee - if you have any doubt, you are perfectly entitled to put a provisional ball into play. None of your opponents actions were against the rules of golf.
 
I think that there may be a distinction when playing socially and the consequences of not playing to a rule.

If a player's ball is moved slightly and by accident he/she still has the same distance and basic shot conditions, so gained no real advantage.

However when a stroke and distance penalty is involved for an infringement then the 'rules' should always apply.

I guess I'm try to say that most of the time what if fair and honourable is usually OK - the rules simply define the situations in precise terms.

Being an 'expert' can be both a blessing and a curse..
 
nemicu said:
You're right in saying that the ball has to be declared as lost if you can't find it within a 5 minute search. Then the walk back to the tee is your only option.
I'm not sure what you're saying about your opponents though. It's up to you to decide if your ball is findable from the tee - if you have any doubt, you are perfectly entitled to put a provisional ball into play. None of your opponents actions were against the rules of golf.
Click to expand...

A little bit of a mix up.
A, The very first post in this thread gave a scenario where the guy who hit the tee shot wanted his playing partners to look for his ball while he went back to tee off. Thus breaking a rule, I gather.

B, I looked for the five mins, declared it lost, then went back to the tee to reload.

My first question was to see where example A was breaking the rules. And more importantly if my actions, example b, where correct.
 
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drdel said:
I think that there may be a distinction when playing socially and the consequences of not playing to a rule.

If a player's ball is moved slightly and by accident he/she still has the same distance and basic shot conditions, so gained no real advantage.

However when a stroke and distance penalty is involved for an infringement then the 'rules' should always apply.

I guess I'm try to say that most of the time what if fair and honourable is usually OK - the rules simply define the situations in precise terms.

Being an 'expert' can be both a blessing and a curse..
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure if "no real advantage" means it can be "accidentally moved" onto a tuft of grass for an impromptu tee - likewise it can be accidentally moved into an unplayable lie... That's where the rules contain no ambiguity to allow discretion - if the ball has been accidentally moved, then it must be replaced - advantage has nothing to do with it. Both scenarios are potentially infringements - only one isn't if it is replaced. That's the rules actually helping you to avoid penalty. Thus, play by the rules at all times - you never know when it might be to your advantage.
 
davemc1 said:
A little bit of a mix up.
A, The very first post in this thread gave a scenario where the guy who hit the tee shot wanted his playing partners to look for his ball while he went back to tee off. Thus breaking a rule, I gather.

B, I looked for the five mins, declared it lost, then went back to the tee to reload.

My first question was to see where example A was breaking the rules. And more importantly if my actions, example b, where correct.
Click to expand...

I see.
You were right in your actions in scenario B.
Example A - the player must declare a provisional and put it into play before leaving the tee and searching for his first ball. If he fails to do so, once he returns to the tee to play another shot, the first must be abandoned (deemed "lost") and his 3rd shot is now the ball in play. It seems the OP saved his bacon by finding his original ball before he played again from the tee.
Technically, it only becomes a breach if he subsequently plays his original ball after putting another ball into play - he would be playing the wrong ball and subject to penalty. The player probably didn't know this. Good job the OP did.
 
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