Is distance embarrassing?

[garyinderry]

Fella at eccelston park. Dandering round half cut drinking cider. Hit it a country mile but with a very ropey short game. Decent enough player due to the length but that was his biggest strength.

Him and his mate were standing in the middle of the par 5 waiting for the green to clear. I was thinking to myself, whos this Billy big balls behind me. He nails it.

I ended up playing and last 6 or 7 holes with him and his mate. He didn't take the game seriously but could easily play to singles with his freak long hitting.

 

[MadAdey]

As Gary said, this forum is somewhere most people have met in person so if you lie your going to get found out. I have always had good distance, but my short game was always pretty poor. But over the last couple of years it has improved dramatically. I've played with both sides of the spectrum, long hitters, poor short game and short hitters excellent short game and accuracy. Both play off low handicaps.

I've played with + handicappers that I smash the ball past! but they still get round in less shots than me. Donald gives away 30 yards to a lot of fellow tour pros, but still manages to compete. Golf is all about an all round game, you can only get so low with parts missing, but it will soon catch up with you if you have major weaknesses.

Not many people have ever had a perfect game, Tiger is one of the few as in his prime he was untouchable for several years. Why, because it didn't matter if his long game was off, his short game could make up for it.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Fella at eccelston park. Dandering round half cut drinking cider. Hit it a country mile but with a very ropey short game. Decent enough player due to the length but that was his biggest strength.

Him and his mate were standing in the middle of the par 5 waiting for the green to clear. I was thinking to myself, whos this Billy big balls behind me. He nails it.

I ended up playing and last 6 or 7 holes with him and his mate. He didn't take the game seriously but could easily play to singles with his freak long hitting.

Did he hit any goats?

 

[Liverbirdie]

It's not how far, it's how close that matters.

 

[garyinderry]

Did he hit any goats?

Is that a pop at ep? more likely to hit a pylon tbh. I did.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Is that a pop at ep? more likely to hit a pylon tbh. I did.

A pyl of, more like.

No not my favourite track.

 

[tsped83]

Distance is everything. This is the GM Forum right? My average drive is 350 easily. They call me hot-stepper.

 

[garyinderry]

A pyl of, more like.

No not my favourite track.

Minus the pylons its a decent wee test. wouldn't travel a long way to play it.


I might try and make 1o'clock or so tomorrow. I'll bell you and Ian to find out where you are.

 

[Siren]

I havent read the whole thread but I play with a guy who very regularly drives the ball 300+ but cant chip and put so he is off 9. On the other hand I play with a guy who drives it around 200 yards and he is off 9. Funnily enough they played each other this year in our matchplay comp.

Who do you think won?

Drive for show putt for dough.

 

[CMAC]

I agree with the op, never seen a low hcp player only hit it 220 off the tee, usually around 250 ish.
If I lived closer!

I'm 220 according to trackman and my 99mph low launching swing. I'm 285 in my head but trackman doesnt lie, does it?

 

[Dave B]

Who do you think won?

Drive for show putt for dough.

I'd put my money on the short hitter. I was joined half way around the course one day when playing on my own by a 75 yr old who drove consistently 200-210 max straight down the middle. He pared most holes with the very occasional bogey.

His handicap was 14 however he had a very good round and ended up 7 over. I don't think I've seen a better display of bump and run and putting and it was a pleasure to have him join me.

 

[Nosevi]

hats off to the chap that said it was a fishing trip - maybe I overstated the case a tad but that was to prompt discussion.

Here's a fact though - long hitting doesn't hurt you. A lack of accuracy might but long hitting doesn't.

There are several ball flight models out there but all are pretty similar these days. Taking this one: http://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/
and plug in a launch speed of say 130mph (pretty low in truth), trajectory of 14 degrees and spin of about 4000rpm which is not an unusual number to see on a short driver. It'll give you a drive of about 220 or just under yards. Now leave the ball speed and trajectory the same but drop the spin to 2000rpm - there's your 20 yards. Most short hitters would gain that by slightly changing their technique (being more centred, maintaining spine tilt etc) yet not hitting the ball any harder.

Knowing what you know about golf, if you hit the ball with the same force but with less overall spin, will it hold its line more or go off line more, especially into wind?

Using the tech that's now available you can do things like getting more distance with no more effort while hitting the ball in such a way that it holds its line better. You just need to know how to use it.

 

[SocketRocket]

If you can drive a nice fairway at around 230 yards and hit a 5 wood a steady 200 yards then you will be OK for most par 4s and within a 100 yards of most par 5s. If your mid to short game is pretty OK then you should be capable of playing to a single figure handicap. If you cant then get consistent and learn to chip and putt.

 

[MadAdey]

If you can drive a nice fairway at around 230 yards and hit a 5 wood a steady 200 yards then you will be OK for most par 4s and within a 100 yards of most par 5s. If your mid to short game is pretty OK then you should be capable of playing to a single figure handicap. If you cant then get consistent and learn to chip and putt.

This is the thing, how many par 4s at most private clubs are over 440 yards. So unless you want to be scratch then you do not require to be able to hit every par 4 in regulation.

 

[Smiffy]

If you want a lesson in course management, go and play with the Seniors at your club.
Most (not all) of them play around mid teens handicap or higher. Most (not all) of them have been down to single figures during their golfing lifetime.
They knock it 190 down the middle, knock it another 150 with their second shots and invariably save par (or bogie at worst) by chipping close and single/two putting. Very rarely do they "blob" a hole.
Even on par 3's where they might have to hit a hybrid to your 6 or 7 iron, they are usually shotting, put their tee shot around the green, and again, chip and putt for 3 points.
It's not until you walk off the 18th and tally their score up that you now realise you have been turned over.
They have lost their distance, but their short games are to die for. And the extra shots they've accrued over the years are much more useful to them than an extra 30 yards off the tee.

 

[Nosevi]

If you want a lesson in course management, go and play with the Seniors at your club.

They have lost their distance, but their short games are to die for. And the extra shots they've accrued over the years are much more useful to them than an extra 30 yards off the tee.

I'm sure I would learn a lesson or 2 from them (in fact I play with them regularly) but doubt it'd be about course management - I know when I *should* play it smart, whether I do or not is another question.

Ok, just a friendly debate, deliberately a tad 'contentious' but why does the opposing view to mine always come down to an argument that it has to be length OR a decent short game. The 2 are not in any way linked. The best combo (by far) is a lot of length AND a decent short game. I'm a member at 2 courses - one massively short, one long(ish) especially off the whites. Length allows me to reach long holes on the longer course and gives me and easy ride on the shorter course. I don't see length as a disadvantage in the game of golf ever. The idea that if you're a bigger hitter you lack course management skills or have no short game doesn't really stack up. When a longer hitter is faced with a tight 330 yard par 4 he may elect to play a 6 iron off the tee where a shorter guy may have to play a driver or 3 wood to be in the same place. Do you think the longer hitter is less likely to hit the fairway with a 6 iron than a shorter hitter is to hit it with the driver? If so, what brings you to that conclusion?

Regarding better players being short or not, it just seems to me that the higher you go, the more distance matters. Someone mentioned Luke Donald as a short hitter earlier. Luke's a smallish guy - 5'9'' and slightly built - but he's far from short off the tee. Last year he averaged about 265 yards carry off the tee with a driver in hand..... that's not total distance, that's carry. Jim Furyk, another 'short hitter' that people sometimes quote? 261 yards carry on average with a driver. These guys have had to add yardage to their game in order to keep up.

Anyway, like I said, just a friendly debate but no one is likely to convince me that distance off the tee in golf is not important. It's an asset, if used wisely a huge asset.

Length off the tee vs sharp short game or course management - not even slightly connected IMO. It's possible to have both

 

[Smiffy]

Length off the tee vs sharp short game or course management - not even slightly connected IMO. It's possible to have both

Did you ever see Nick Faldo in the "flesh?"
Massive guy. Couldn't believe how big he was until I saw him at East Sussex National in the early 90's.
He wasn't a big hitter. By today's standards he would be laughed at.
But he had great course management and a half decent short game.
All I'm saying is that length isn't the be all and end all.
If somebody is bombing out there 300 yards, and has a top notch short game, why aren't they on tour????
Have you played with our very own "Leftie"...Roger Oliver????
He'll be the first to admit that he is a short hitter. A good drive for him is 200 yards or so. But most times I play in a group with him, he is in or around the money. Steady Eddie. 9 times out of 10 he'll turn you over for the pot. Because he has a short game that lower handicappers would be proud of. Chips are usually (usually) stone dead and he rattles putts in from all over the place.

 

[Chisteve]

Interesting thread this

I have only just started playing above 4 years ago in my 50's, like to think fairly fit play tennis and racket ball and occasional squash + hiking and carry my bag

I have been working with my driver and managed about 250 yards in middle of fairway in the summer anyway always fought the dreded slice

I had lessons at the very start, was instructed on the short game much more than anything else.

I would much prefer accuracy off the tee than distance to the rough stuff

But it's great to smash a greet drive sometimes

 

[Nosevi]

This is the thing, how many par 4s at most private clubs are over 440 yards. So unless you want to be scratch then you do not require to be able to hit every par 4 in regulation.

But flipping that on its head isn't that a bit like saying distance isn't even slightly important because you can always have a higher handicap?

I think the only thing 'wrong' with distance is that long hitters can be tempted to use it when they really shouldn't where a shorter hitter doesn't have to make that decision. Distance in and of itself is never the issue.

I get lessons from a guy called Neil Harvey at Woodhall (very good coach, I would recommend him) and he set it out quite simply. Courses are set out to 'catch' the mid - longish hitter - fairway bunkers etc are invariably placed in a position where they'll catch a medium hitter but not a short hitter. The medium hitter *could* choose to lay up and be in the same spot as the shorter hitter - whether they do or not is another matter. But if they do they're going into the green with less club than the short guy, they have extra spin and therefore extra control.

For the long hitter the fairway bunker on a standard track is no longer an issue, he's checked it's yardage, he's going to fly it anyway, no need to lay up. He's now gained far more off the tee in relation to the medium guy, no layup and no risk, it's a straightforward question of getting it on the short stuff. When he does he's pulling his wedge. If he wants to though he can lay up too and then he's just in the same position as the shorter hitter only standing there with more loft in his hand. Can't see that ever being a disadvantage.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Interesting thread on a well worn subject. Here's my story.

Always been a fairly short but reasonably accurate driver. My "good" drive drive used to be around 210-20 with a bit of fade. However, we have 3 par 4's over 450 and another at 438, none of which I could reach in 2 and another 3 at 399-410 which I was having to hit fairways and hybrids into. If the course was playing long I struggled.

At the Kings of Distance Day the trackman analysis showed me only just getting over 200 with a very negative a-o-a and very high spin and a bit of fade. They weren't my best efforts but tried teeing the ball a bit more forward (as recommended by Joe Miller) and tried a 9 degree X hot 2 (my driver was 10.5) and added 20 yards. Hmmm I thought.

Booked myself a lesson and as well as the ball position the pro tweaked my grip a tad stronger and got me to swing more freely and I was losing the fade and getting 20 yards extra with my old driver. Got myself a 9 degree driver and added another 10 yards to that.

OK so still short but getting 230 on a regular basis with the odd one a bit further. Now I could reach at least a couple of those 4 long 4's and hit shorter clubs to the shorter ones. Shot my best 2 scores in comps for nearly 20 years back to back to win one and come second in the other, got chopped 3 shots (to my lowest ever h/cap after 40 years of golf) and won the club OOM.

I can only speak for myself but those extra 20-30 yards made a huge difference to my game. On a shorter course or one with a different layout it may not have done or if I had a cracking short game it might have been less important but I can't really argue with the results.