Intermediate Fees

[Hobbit]

I have a real issue with these intermediate fees. Full membership for 7 days is c£1600 at my club and yet we still offer discounts up to 35 years old. Many of these are in the prime of their life, plenty of disposable income, well paid jobs, can use the course at prime time and paying significantly less than me and anyone from 36 upwards.

I totally get the whole premise of trying to attract young blood and retaining juniors but this seems totally excessive. I accept that I don't have to pay the fees but it seems that most clubs around here have some form of intermediate fees. There has to be a better way of retaining and encouraging memberships without an imbalance of fees for such a long period

Those in their late 20's, early 30's are probably recently married, got a family and a mortgage. Would the dutiful wife/husband accept a weekend in a caravan for a holiday rather than two weeks in Spain whilst their partner paid their fees. Then there's the comp fees and beer after the round.

If you feel strongly enough, garner support for a motion at the AGM that proposes to stop these incentives.

Be aware that if you lose those intermediates from your club, from age 18 to 30-ish, you'll probably see your own fees rise by circa £100 on top of whatever the annual rise will be. Then see some full members resign because of a way over inflationary increase, and you'll see your fees rise even further.

That cycyle of losing full members at £1600 a go might see your fees rise to well over £1700 to cover that shortfall.

Once a club decides to step back from their current business model that includes reduced fees when other clubs locally are still offering them...

 

[Val]

I have a real issue with these intermediate fees. Full membership for 7 days is c£1600 at my club and yet we still offer discounts up to 35 years old. Many of these are in the prime of their life, plenty of disposable income, well paid jobs, can use the course at prime time and paying significantly less than me and anyone from 36 upwards.

I totally get the whole premise of trying to attract young blood and retaining juniors but this seems totally excessive. I accept that I don't have to pay the fees but it seems that most clubs around here have some form of intermediate fees. There has to be a better way of retaining and encouraging memberships without an imbalance of fees for such a long period

Suggest it here and we'll critique it before you submit to your club.

 

[Val]

It's well document club membership at man many clubs is dying, numbers are down, junior sections are small or non existent. Clubs have no money, clubhouses need money spent, fees are getting higher.

If I was given a choice of losing 10 full members or gaining 10 intermediates paying less than me with no losses of membership then I know what I'd have.

 

[Foxholer]

I have a real issue with these intermediate fees. Full membership for 7 days is c£1600 at my club and yet we still offer discounts up to 35 years old. Many of these are in the prime of their life, plenty of disposable income, well paid jobs, can use the course at prime time and paying significantly less than me and anyone from 36 upwards.

I totally get the whole premise of trying to attract young blood and retaining juniors but this seems totally excessive. I accept that I don't have to pay the fees but it seems that most clubs around here have some form of intermediate fees. There has to be a better way of retaining and encouraging memberships without an imbalance of fees for such a long period

I'd suggest that on a per/hour of use basis, you are getting far cheaper golf than almost any other members - even the Intermediates! Though 35 does seem to be a touch too high. I presume there's a sliding scale of fees, so maybe 34-35 is near full-rate.

Of course, for most 7 Day membership means 2 (or even 1) Day membership! The real 'bargain' is often 5 day membership!

It has never mattered what 'deal' others were getting. as long as I could/can justify the fees, I was/am happy!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Those in their late 20's, early 30's are probably recently married, got a family and a mortgage. Would the dutiful wife/husband accept a weekend in a caravan for a holiday rather than two weeks in Spain whilst their partner paid their fees. Then there's the comp fees and beer after the round.

If you feel strongly enough, garner support for a motion at the AGM that proposes to stop these incentives.

Be aware that if you lose those intermediates from your club, from age 18 to 30-ish, you'll probably see your own fees rise by circa £100 on top of whatever the annual rise will be. Then see some full members resign because of a way over inflationary increase, and you'll see your fees rise even further.

That cycyle of losing full members at £1600 a go might see your fees rise to well over £1700 to cover that shortfall.

Once a club decides to step back from their current business model that includes reduced fees when other clubs locally are still offering them...

If you talk to many of those paying reduced fees, especially those in say the 30-35 bracket, they are all married already, all in well paid roles and most seemingly taking holidays abroad as well as going on some of the trips organised by members to Turkey or Spain so disposable income doesn't seem in short supply nor does the good will of their partners. It is perhaps this bracket in particular that could seemingly afford the additional charges, without too much scrimping or the family going without, the most. Look in most of their bags and they are using pretty modern equipment which also doesn't come cheap

I am sure the club would put an economical argument forward for why we have it but I'm not sure of the maths. We are almost fully subscribed at the moment and those coming in are over 35 and therefore eligible for the full whack and so if anything, losing a few paying less and getting more paying more would see more income coming in. Of course, the demographic, already older in make up will change. I understand that. However it would be a brave decision for the club to even decide to reduce the brackets, one I don't think it would be prepared to take and I would need a lot of discussions and details on membership fee income before I'd consider raising it at an AGM. It does sit uncomfortably and indeed is a topic that rears its head every renewal time and provokes some fierce opinions.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It's well document club membership at man many clubs is dying, numbers are down, junior sections are small or non existent. Clubs have no money, clubhouses need money spent, fees are getting higher.

If I was given a choice of losing 10 full members or gaining 10 intermediates paying less than me with no losses of membership then I know what I'd have.

When doing a membership conf with EGU a while back they reported that clubs who introduced the intermediate membership scheme helped increase the participation of golfers between the age of 18 and 30 by up to 40%

It certainly has helped our club and it was universally accepted with no issues from anyone.

We found when speaking to the members arriving they were coming from clubs with smaller fees but wanted to play at our place but couldn't justify the cost - all of them have now paid the full joining fee and most over the next two years will be at the full members rate

 

[Hobbit]

If you talk to many of those paying reduced fees, especially those in say the 30-35 bracket, they are all married already, all in well paid roles and most seemingly taking holidays abroad as well as going on some of the trips organised by members to Turkey or Spain so disposable income doesn't seem in short supply nor does the good will of their partners. It is perhaps this bracket in particular that could seemingly afford the additional charges, without too much scrimping or the family going without, the most. Look in most of their bags and they are using pretty modern equipment which also doesn't come cheap

I am sure the club would put an economical argument forward for why we have it but I'm not sure of the maths. We are almost fully subscribed at the moment and those coming in are over 35 and therefore eligible for the full whack and so if anything, losing a few paying less and getting more paying more would see more income coming in. Of course, the demographic, already older in make up will change. I understand that. However it would be a brave decision for the club to even decide to reduce the brackets, one I don't think it would be prepared to take and I would need a lot of discussions and details on membership fee income before I'd consider raising it at an AGM. It does sit uncomfortably and indeed is a topic that rears its head every renewal time and provokes some fierce opinions.

As a previous head of finance for a number of years I've heard your arguments many times. I've seen a number of different schemes come and go, and I've seen several back of a fag packet amendments proposed, and occasionally passed, at AGM's.

Clubs try to maximise their revenue streams any way they can and are usually very responsive to market dynamics.

A suggestion for a change; anyone already on a scheme stays on the scheme. All new members pay full rate. Or alternatively, reduce the the differential across each band.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I'd suggest that on a per/hour of use basis, you are getting far cheaper golf than almost any other members - even the Intermediates! Though 35 does seem to be a touch too high. I presume there's a sliding scale of fees, so maybe 34-35 is near full-rate.

Of course, for most 7 Day membership means 2 (or even 1) Day membership! The real 'bargain' is often 5 day membership!

It has never mattered what 'deal' others were getting. as long as I could/can justify the fees, I was/am happy!

I agree totally with the last sentence in particular and I can only ensure I have enough each year to renew. The final bracket is still £300-500 cheaper (can't remember the exact figure until we get the next renewal notice through). As we don't have booked tee times, I guess we get a fair slice of golf in especially in the summer although of course five day members tend to get the best deal at this time of year with deserted courses and the chance to play.

As for intermediate fees actually growing membership, and I'd definitely question 40% mentioned, I'd have to disagree. We still have a huge gulf between juniors (ending at 18) and the next biggest demographic, probably around the 30 year old. I think, and I play the biggest roll ups each weekend there are perhaps 5-10 aged around 20-30 and I would go further and suggest that even in club comps this figure is at most a further 50% at most.

 

[Val]

If you talk to many of those paying reduced fees, especially those in say the 30-35 bracket, they are all married already, all in well paid roles and most seemingly taking holidays abroad as well as going on some of the trips organised by members to Turkey or Spain so disposable income doesn't seem in short supply nor does the good will of their partners. It is perhaps this bracket in particular that could seemingly afford the additional charges, without too much scrimping or the family going without, the most. Look in most of their bags and they are using pretty modern equipment which also doesn't come cheap

I am sure the club would put an economical argument forward for why we have it but I'm not sure of the maths. We are almost fully subscribed at the moment and those coming in are over 35 and therefore eligible for the full whack and so if anything, losing a few paying less and getting more paying more would see more income coming in. Of course, the demographic, already older in make up will change. I understand that. However it would be a brave decision for the club to even decide to reduce the brackets, one I don't think it would be prepared to take and I would need a lot of discussions and details on membership fee income before I'd consider raising it at an AGM. It does sit uncomfortably and indeed is a topic that rears its head every renewal time and provokes some fierce opinions.

What would happen at your club If you dropped the age and all those affected went elsewhere?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

When doing a membership conf with EGU a while back they reported that clubs who introduced the intermediate membership scheme helped increase the participation of golfers between the age of 18 and 30 by up to 40%

It certainly has helped our club and it was universally accepted with no issues from anyone.

We found when speaking to the members arriving they were coming from clubs with smaller fees but wanted to play at our place but couldn't justify the cost - all of them have now paid the full joining fee and most over the next two years will be at the full members rate

Will that be the end of the intermediate fees then Phil or do you see yourselves continueing to offer them?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Eggsackertly

indeed

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you talk to many of those paying reduced fees, especially those in say the 30-35 bracket, they are all married already, all in well paid roles and most seemingly taking holidays abroad as well as going on some of the trips organised by members to Turkey or Spain so disposable income doesn't seem in short supply nor does the good will of their partners. It is perhaps this bracket in particular that could seemingly afford the additional charges, without too much scrimping or the family going without, the most. Look in most of their bags and they are using pretty modern equipment which also doesn't come cheap

But this way of thinking would take a club down the route of means testing members or potential members. And how do you do that? Those with loads of money could have their accountant make it seem that they were impoverished and so they'd get reduced fees - whilst the not so well off would pay more?

No -not for me - as others have said - if I am happy to pay the full membership then I really don't care what younger (indeed any other) member pays (as long as I'm not the only one paying the full amount!). I have to trust our board/committees to get the membership subs structure right and fair for members, and appropriate to attracting and keeping new members.

 

[ScienceBoy]

100% behind them, I could not have afforded a membership without them at South Winch.

As essential as flexible memberships.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

But this way of thinking would take a club down the route of means testing members or potential members. And how do you do that? Those with loads of money could have their accountant make it seem that they were impoverished and so they'd get reduced fees - whilst the not so well off would pay more?

No -not for me - as others have said - if I am happy to pay the full membership then I really don't care what younger (indeed any other) member pays (as long as I'm not the only one paying the full amount!). I have to trust our board/committees to get the membership subs structure right and fair for members, and appropriate to attracting and keeping new members.

I was merely answering the point. All those still on reduced rates seem to have new(ish) gear, go away with the family and go on overseas trips organised by members so it is clear that disposable income isn't an issue for most. No mention of means testing and surely it'll come down to a simple person by person choice as to whether they could afford it annually and if not, look at other clubs as an alternative.

The bottom line is simple and so I'm not going to carry on answering, is that the club won't change these fees and while I disagree with them particularly the final 30-35 bracket, there is no point worrying about things I can't change. Life's too short. I was merely adding my thoughts to the debate.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Will that be the end of the intermediate fees then Phil or do you see yourselves continueing to offer them?

We will continue to offer them - they are now membership categories and have shown to lower the age of the golfer in our place . As previously said we went from 2/3 members between the age of 18-30 to now over 70 members. We also offer reductions to people who are over the age of 70 and have a certain of years membership behind them. I expect we will have another 20 more 20-30 joining in the next couple of weeks off the waiting list

 

[Deleted member 16999]

We will continue to offer them - they are now membership categories and have shown to lower the age of the golfer in our place . As previously said we went from 2/3 members between the age of 18-30 to now over 70 members. We also offer reductions to people who are over the age of 70 and have a certain of years membership behind them. I expect we will have another 20 more 20-30 joining in the next couple of weeks off the waiting list

All good stuff, nice to hear about clubs doing well from it.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

All good stuff, nice to hear about clubs doing well from it.

Our old membership secretary won an EGU Award because of the innovations he brought to the club to increase our membership levels especially at the young adult age and they are great for the club

You will obviously get the odd grumble from members with the "they pay less than me to play the course" without having the foresight to understand the reasons why - of course they would be the first to throw the teddies firmly out of the cot if overall fees went up due to not having a full membership

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Our old membership secretary won an EGU Award because of the innovations he brought to the club to increase our membership levels especially at the young adult age and they are great for the club

You will obviously get the odd grumble from members with the "they pay less than me to play the course" without having the foresight to understand the reasons why - of course they would be the first to throw the teddies firmly out of the cot if overall fees went up due to not having a full membership

We're struggling badly and a few "old and bold" on the committee are blocking a few speculative incentives to get new members in and it's a shame when you hear other clubs doing well.

 

[Raesy92]

There are about 8 of us that play at decent course 20 mins from where we stay. All started on the 'Youth' membership which stops once you are 25.

This is my last year of having the reduction in fee's and if I hadn't been getting it I would have probably moved somewhere closer that's not quite as good. 3 or 4 of my mates are a year or two older so all now paying full subs because they started off on a youth membership and have enjoyed the club enough to continue to play there. Most likely we will all be members for the foreseeable future.

 

[Val]

We're struggling badly and a few "old and bold" on the committee are blocking a few speculative incentives to get new members in and it's a shame when you hear other clubs doing well.

How easy is it to get people to stand against the old and bold in a vote?