Independence Poll

[Deleted member 1418]

Not every Labour/Lib Dem supporter is against Independence btw.

I accept that, but as the Labour and Lib Dem leaders in Scotland still (I think) take their manifesto's from the overall party leadership in the rest of the UK, if that is against independence then that throws up an interesting scenario.

I also take your point Adi about the negotiations, but I reckon they're probably not as advanced or amicable as you may think given the stance of the respective parties involved, and as such the steer being given to civil servants. It will certainly be interesting to see how this develops over the next 18 - 24 months.

 

[Stub]

Independence every time...the sooner the better. Sadly, as an Englishman living in England I don't expect to get a vote but let's hope the SNP win the day.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

I see your point about divorce Adi', very well made. However some divorces are amicable, some bitter.

If Scotlands share of the national debt is allocated on this basis of your 9%, it will be saddled with debts of around £140billion.

Would an independent Scotland also be made to take back the £187billion in toxic assets of the Royal Bank of Scotland, currently held by the Treasury?




Who knows? One thing is for sure us, mere peasants will never know the full facts.

Think the figure is closer to £100Billion, but aye, that sounds fair.

As for RBoS, no chance, and there is precedence and international law to back this up.Most of the debt accrued by RBoS,HBoS etc was done in the square mile in the City of London.
Each nation is responsible for the proportion of debt that area accrued, so we'd be in for about 8%, London wide boys 92%.See Fortis Dexia bank and the benelux coutries & France for precedence.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Would you try to start a sucessful business that will immediately be saddled wth a £327 Billion debt?

That figure is totally inaccurate mate, so wildly wrong it's worrying you actually believe it.

And I think you'll find that the depopulation of the Highlands is more to do with jobs/industrialisation.

Wrong.So wrong.

The Highland clearances were a result of The Duke of Sutherland, at the behest of the Westminster government forcibly removing the locals so sheep could graze on their land.

 

[One Planer]

Think the figure is closer to £100Billion, but aye, that sounds fair.

As for RBoS, no chance, and there is precedence and international law to back this up.Most of the debt accrued by RBoS,HBoS etc was done in the square mile in the City of London.
Each nation is responsible for the proportion of debt that area accrued, so we'd be in for about 8%, London wide boys 92%.See Fortis Dexia bank and the benelux coutries & France for precedence.

So the 8% of RBS debt equates to around £14.96Bn. Add this to £140Bn gives a total of £154.96Bn as national debt. With potentially more negotiation dependant.

Couple the above with a debt reduction plan, similar to the one currently being felt across the Eurozone and UK

Not the Idea start for a new country is it?

 

[Liverbirdie]

That figure is totally inaccurate mate, so wildly wrong it's worrying you actually believe it.



Wrong.So wrong.

The Highland clearances were a result of The Duke of Sutherland, at the behest of the Westminster government forcibly removing the locals so sheep could graze on their land.

The first time it was the Duke, ably assisted by locals (as usual). The second time would have been via mass urbanisation which took place throughout Europe in the late 1800's.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

So the 8% of RBS debt equates to around £14.96Bn. Add this to £140Bn gives a total of £154.96Bn as national debt. With potentially more negotiation dependant.

Couple the above with a debt reduction plan, similar to the one currently being felt across the Eurozone and UK

Not the Idea start for a new country is it?

UK liability for RBS/HBoS was £88 Billion, so £7Billion to Scotland, add in the £140b (which I think is closer to £100b) and you get £147Billion as you calculate, I reckon £110 is more accurate.

GDP for Scotland in 08 was £145Billion, that, I think, excludes whisky,oil/gas.

We'd like to start with a clean slate, but thats unlikely.I reckon we could manage...infact, give it 5 years after independence, and I would bet our credit rating,debt exposure and overall financial health would be much,much better than Englands.

 

[One Planer]

UK liability for RBS/HBoS was £88 Billion, so £7Billion to Scotland, add in the £140b (which I think is closer to £100b) and you get £147Billion as you calculate, I reckon £110 is more accurate.

GDP for Scotland in 08 was £145Billion, that, I think, excludes whisky,oil/gas.

We'd like to start with a clean slate, but thats unlikely.I reckon we could manage...infact, give it 5 years after independence, and I would bet our credit rating,debt exposure and overall financial health would be much,much better than Englands.

An interesting article from the Independant:

Taxpayer Scotland, which is linked to the London-based Taxpayers' Alliance organisation, estimates Scotland's debt could be as high as £189bn, even before taking into account its share of the national debt.


Adding in Scotland's £80bn share of the UK's £940bn national debt suggests it might face a £269bn burden, costing more than £10bn in annual interest payments.


The report by Taxpayer Scotland warns that even with annual oil and gas revenues of £6bn, the country spends £9bn more every year than it generates in revenues.


"Scotland continues to practice Ponzi scheme government, with little sign of any understanding that this can only end in real problems for the public purse – especially if English beneficence is taken out of present balances and even if all oil revenues become Scotland's," said the report.


The Barnett formula hands 10p of every £1 the Government distributes to Scotland. To replace this money at present would require Scotland to borrow £7.5bn every year and Taxpayer Scotland says the country's annual deficit would be "much nearer" to 30pc of GDP than the 15pc calculated by the latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland report.



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"Clearly, the present Keynesian overspend in response to the 'credit crunch' downturn is unsustainable, but even our normal year overspend of between 10pc and 15pc (depending on how you view the Barnett subsidy) is above the OECD average and, in our view, unsustainable," said the report.

Scotland's financial health has become a matter of heated debate as the prospect of a referendum on its independence has risen up the political agenda.

Jim Leaviss, a fund manager at M&G, this month presented his own analysis of Scotland's creditworthiness in which he argued the country would be unlikely to carry over the UK's AAA rating if it were to go it alone.

Among the issues identified by Mr Leaviss was the problem of what share of the toxic liabilities of Scottish-based lenders HBOS and Royal Bank of Scotland should be taken at independence.

Speaking last week, Scotland's First Minister, Alex Salmond, said the country would not be liable for any of the banks' debts

The bit of this that got may attention was servicing the debt/year (Circa £10bn).

 

[JustOne]

As for % of tax revenue because of more employment; stats are brilliant. There's a huge amount more tax paid by English tax payers than by Scottish tax payers. The ratio of tax payer to benefit takers may be better in Scotland but the actual sums of money paid into the Treasury by income tax payer in England. There's 31million employed in England, and 2.4million employed in Scotland...
.

I'm sure 9% of not much is not much :thup: Let's hope they have a few big earners.

Totally agree with Murphthemog about 'cherry picking', as I said in one of my previous posts it would be pointless if Scotland ended up being a parasite at the top of the Island. Is that independence or humiliation? We could change it to Spongeland if you like?

And YES you can definitely have the Bank of Scotland back!!!!

 

[Adi2Dassler]

An interesting article from the Independant:




The bit of this that got may attention was servicing the debt/year (Circa £10bn).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TaxPayers'_Alliance

Imagine a conservative lobbyist producing numbers that might help the no vote!

Just for balance ( and more open point of view) if you have the time, read this>it's quite a lot, but interesting none-the-less

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/inde...ionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation

 

[One Planer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TaxPayers'_Alliance

Imagine a conservative lobbyist producing numbers that might help the no vote!

Just for balance ( and more open point of view) if you have the time, read this>it's quite a lot, but interesting none-the-less

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/inde...ionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation

I'll have a read shortly pal. I'd be interested to read it as I like a balanced debate :thup:

Being serious for a second though.

If that figure is a fair reflection on how much it will cost to annually service the independant national debt.

Do you think Scotland has a large enough GDP and revenue base (Tax) to service such a massive debt in the long term?

 

[Adi2Dassler]

I'll have a read shortly pal. I'd be interested to read it as I like a balanced debate :thup:

Being serious for a second though.

If that figure is a fair reflection on how much it will cost to annually service the independant national debt.

Do you think Scotland has a large enough GDP and revenue base (Tax) to service such a massive debt in the long term?

We could deal with it yes, but it would destroy any plans for employment/work places/hospitals that we need to address.I'm highly suspicious of the number,though.

I'd want independence anyway, the right to self determination is about more than money.

As an aside, I think it would be good for England too.I dunno how it's happened, but being a proud Englishman has somehow recently turned into being a rightwing nut job, and I'm not sure how or why.

 

[One Planer]

We could deal with it yes, but it would destroy any plans for employment/work places/hospitals that we need to address.I'm highly suspicious of the number,though.

I'd want independence anyway, the right to self determination is about more than money.

As an aside, I think it would be good for England too.I dunno how it's happened, but being a proud Englishman has somehow recently turned into being a rightwing nut job, and I'm not sure how or why.

I would agree with this.

I'm not for or against Scottish independence I don't really have an opinion on it, however, the split must be fair to both parties and as amicable as possible.

I.E No Cherry picking :rofl:

 

[JustOne]

Independence is like wasting your 40yr marriage on one fling. Inviting but such a waste!

Once divorced you have to hand back your keys and NO you can't pop over to do your laundry!

Of courses, someone else WILL be sleeping in your bed.... we'll find new priorities and move on

 

[munro007]

I love picking cherries. They taste a lot better than supermarket rubbish.

On another note, i think the way this debate has gone, is so refreshing, not turning into a slagging match.

Thank you to most of you's, for your informed input. :thup:

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The newsnett piece was quite an eye opener.
Thanks for that.

 

[Dellboy]

I vote for yes, but only if you take back my wife !! :thup:

 

[munro007]

I vote for yes, but only if you take back my wife !! :thup:

:rofl:

 

[Doon frae Troon]

My English wife and two daughters are SNP supporters. I am not.
Does that mean as a Scot I have to return to England.
I have lived 21 years in Scotland, 30 in England then another 14 in Scotland..

 

[munro007]

My English wife and two daughters are SNP supporters. I am not.
Does that mean as a Scot I have to return to England.
I have lived 21 years in Scotland, 30 in England then another 14 in Scotland..

My god, i didn't think you were that old. :thup: