Foxholer
Blackballed
On the contrary, I, as a former referee/umpire in several other sports/pastimes, find the Rules of Golf neither daft, nor stuffy. In fact, compared with the likes of Rugby, they are wonderfully succint!
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Foxholer
Blackballed
The Rule isn't wrong! It's the marking that's 'wrong'!Really? I had no idea
Just to avoid any confusion....I know the rule, I just think it's wrong.
FWIW...Rules can't be wrong! They can, however, be 'bad'/need to be changed.
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bobmac
Major Champion
I don't care what you think.
Foxholer
Blackballed
phillarrow
Well-known member
Okay, for the sake of clarity, let me amend that last line in my post:
Regardless of any views that using common sense can be used to a person's advantage and, therefore, is cheating, it is the lack of application of common sense that makes the application of the rules of golf being so daft and stuffy.
This thread is the perfect example of what I am saying.
We ALL know that according to the rule, the ball is OOB. However, we also ALL know that the way the grass has been cut very strongly suggests that it is not supposed to be OOB and that there has been an error in course management.
Some people believe we should stick to the letter of the rules, regardless of how obviously contrary they are to the situation. Some people believe we should stick to the spirit of the rules and apply common sense when there is a clear and obvious reason to do so.
I fall into the latter category and it is my view that golf has too many people who fall into the former, which leads to its ongoing reputation as a stuffy sport for crusty middle-aged men. It is just my view.
PhilTheFragger
Provider of Entertainment for the Golfing Gods 🙄
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Foxholer
Blackballed
I'm firmly in the other camp! Common sense, apart from being all too rare, is arguable/negotiable. As an extreme example, it's common sense that nobody intends to hit a ball into the water in front of the green, so why should they be penalised for doing so! You may as well not have rules at all, as comon sense is negotiable/arguable!
Oh and it's often stated that Golf, particularly, reflects life....Sometimes/in some situations the rules seem unfair, but that's the same in life too! Oh and 'without rules, there'd be chaos' applies too.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Very well put. I'm with you. I'd have taken the white post to mean anything past the line of grass is OOB, as I'm certain that was their intention.
The only thing this is an example of is sheer nonsense from you.
Absolutely no relation to the topic.
Foxholer
Blackballed
1. I did include the word 'extreme'!...
The only thing this is an example of is sheer nonsense from you.
2. So would you decide that it was 'common sense' that the ball in the oft quoted example above was in bounds and simply play it as such?
Oh and worth reminding of Voltaire's (et al) suggestion that 'Common sense is not so common'! It can certainly vary, whereas 'Rules' don't!
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Orikoru
Tour Winner
1. Ok - an example of extreme nonsense from you then.
2. If that was to the satisfaction of all of my playing group, then yes. I believe that common sense indicates that ball is in bounds, I would ask the group if they agree with me. If no objections then I'd go with that. If there were any objections and we couldn't agree, then I'd most likely have to play two balls and decide later, as others have said.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Then you would have been wrong. End of story.
I don't know of any sport in which players can have the choice of applying a rule as written or wriggling out of it because they think something called "common sense" allows them to ignore it.
But don't get me wrong. It is helpful all round to cut grass according to the boundary or set the boundary according to the cutting. and by coincidence in a pre-season walk round to check course markings, it was noticed that there was a mismatch in one place between OOB marking and the edge of the long grass. That will be fixed.
And by the way, I haven't worn a blazer since I left school
Foxholer
Blackballed
So you read/know the rule, which is quite specific, yet consciously go against what it states! Bizarre! And totally against the ethos of Golf!1. Ok - an example of extreme nonsense from you then.
2. If that was to the satisfaction of all of my playing group, then yes. I believe that common sense indicates that ball is in bounds, I would ask the group if they agree with me. If no objections then I'd go with that. If there were any objections and we couldn't agree, then I'd most likely have to play two balls and decide later, as others have said.
Swango1980
Well-known member
1. Ok - an example of extreme nonsense from you then.
2. If that was to the satisfaction of all of my playing group, then yes. I believe that common sense indicates that ball is in bounds, I would ask the group if they agree with me. If no objections then I'd go with that. If there were any objections and we couldn't agree, then I'd most likely have to play two balls and decide later, as others have said.
But, if you were playing in a medal of 100 people, would you ask the other 97 people in the field, or just the 2 you are playing with?
Probably need to separate intent, common sense, rules and stuffiness.
The rules are simply there, to try and be as black and white as possible, to ensure all competitors are treated absolutely fairly. Applying them has nothing to do with stuffiness, it has everything to do with fairness.
If we are talking about intent, I am pretty sure the Committee in this case would intend that all the cut grass is in bounds. So, if they were given another white post, they would put it at the edge of the cut grass, not in line with the existing posts.
The problem with common sense is that it suggests all the cut grass is therefore in bounds. However, this directly contradicts the written rule. So, this in turn means that if someone uses common sense, there will be a different outcome to someone applying the rules. So, common sense leads to unfairness.
Therefore, the problem is not the rule itself, or those golfers applying the rule. The problem is the Committee have done a poor job of marking it. It is to be expected, especially at club level there is a wide range of golfing personalities that play, some serious, knowledgeable, not so knowledgeable and relaxed. Therefore, even though golfers SHOULD follow the written rules, it is inevitable some will use their own judgement / common sense in certain situations, like this. It is therefore important that a Committee do a better job at making things clearer, so that these golfers do not even need to consider using common sense in the first place.
phillarrow
Well-known member
Okay, let's play a silly game of hypotheticals:
Imagine that the white posts were all in place and there was a hole literally a few inches to the right from where the ball stopped, proving that the ball was in play.
But then imagine that someone in a previous group is unfairly competitive (cheats!), or that a random walker decided to mess around with the golfers, and have moved the white post to the left of where the ball currently lays and pushed it into the ground.
In that scenario, would we apply the letter of the rule and declare it OOB? Or would be apply the spirit of the rule and declare it in bounds, given that it is obvious the post has been falsely positioned in the wrong place?
And yes, we know about what the ground staff should have done regarding burnt grass or white lines, but they haven't, so all you've got is the hole and the obviously falsely positioned white post. Common sense or letter of the rules in that scenario?
Imagine that the white posts were all in place and there was a hole literally a few inches to the right from where the ball stopped, proving that the ball was in play.
But then imagine that someone in a previous group is unfairly competitive (cheats!), or that a random walker decided to mess around with the golfers, and have moved the white post to the left of where the ball currently lays and pushed it into the ground.
In that scenario, would we apply the letter of the rule and declare it OOB? Or would be apply the spirit of the rule and declare it in bounds, given that it is obvious the post has been falsely positioned in the wrong place?
And yes, we know about what the ground staff should have done regarding burnt grass or white lines, but they haven't, so all you've got is the hole and the obviously falsely positioned white post. Common sense or letter of the rules in that scenario?
Foxholer
Blackballed
2 Balls; photo if possible; seek a ruling later.
Both common sense and rules/(delayed) ruling
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
It’s not “an ideal world” though
You can only go on what is exactly in front of you
If there is no white line , no other posts and nothing on the score card then ball b is OOB - and that’s by the rules
Swango1980
Well-known member
This would be a very different situation. If you have evidence that a post has been moved, or that is has very likely been moved, then you can take that evidence to the Committee to ask the question. Play two balls if in any doubt (or in match play apply the rule you think is correct, and then confirm after the round and act accordingly).
However, the situation in the OP is different, as there was no indication the exiting posts were in the wrong place.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Don't think that's true at all. Fans and pundits of football, rugby etc are forever crying out for referees to use common sense over applying the 'letter of the law' in every situation. I'd argue golf is in the minority where common sense is ignored!
I just refuse to believe that the club intended there to be angular straight lines between posts to mark what's out of bounds, it goes against all logic in my opinion. And as I said, that only be if everyone in my group agreed unanimously, and 9 times out of 10 I'm certain they would do.
Firstly, I never said anything about stuffiness, that was someone else. I wouldn't call it stuffy to apply the straight line between posts as being out of bounds, more pedantic, or incongruous even.
The bit in bold is what I was saying, and for me that's good enough. For most people who play golf that would be good enough too, I'd wager. If common sense leads to 'unfairness' it is only against those who don't have any, so more fool them really.
Yes obviously the committee should have done a better job of marking it out - but why should the player be punished as a result? That's unfairness.
Steve Wilkes
Well-known member
It's not definitely OOB, as said white post(s) may have been lost, Play 2 balls and check with committee when finished , situation sorted
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
“May” - an unknown , it’s OOB going by the white posts that are there present.
It’s a simple answer to a simple rule
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