Hypothetical Golf Club

[Deleted member 17920]

Response received - Is not willing to discuss!!

I await his next email asking for member support. Stunned

Wow just wow. And we look forward to seeing your reply when they send out the next newsletter asking for help.

How very short sighted. Its not just your club I am afraid, There are a lot in the same situation.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Reading this thread has amazed me, I didn't realise that so many of you are members at my club, I'm surprised I've never seen you there?

Robobum, your managers response doesn't surprise me either. I had issues at my club, I raised them with the committee (I see it as both my right & duty to do so). Similar response was received.
I'm now moving to a new club, so that's my £800 going elsewhere.

 

[In_The_Rough]

This thread keeps on giving. I cannot understand the attitude of some clubs and how the look after their customers. It is almost as if they are paying you to play there rather than the other way round.

 

[SGC001]

Be interested to hear the thoughts if you were a member of this hypothetical golf club.

HGC is a well established members club

The greenkeepers do not work weekends - one of them comes in for a couple of hours to (sometimes) cut the greens and, on comps days move the pins. They get paid overtime rate for this!!!

The course is very, very quick draining.

If the greenkeeper classes the course unfit @ 8am, it remains so until the following morning regardless of whether it becomes playable an hour later.

Is this standard practice at other courses? As it has totally baffled me

It does surprise me when I hear of GK's not working weekends, but I have heard of it before (hypothetical private members club no GK's or greens cut or holes changed weekend). I suppose they believe members wouldn't want to see them weekends which means they'd be working very early in the dark and they can't do as much when people are out on the course (time issues, changing conditions of competitions...). I guess it saves them on wages as most people would hope for an increase in wages if having to work on a 7 day pattern as opposed to 9-5 Mon-Fri, though it could lead to a reduced service at the busiest times. Really an issue for your club to decide if they feel they want to change the GK's contract (and then the GK would have a say).

If the condition of the course is likely to change I'd hope it would be the case that the HGC's decision would be to have a GK there. However, if he comp has started they could only alter ahead of play (or people are playing a different course) and do members need to know if playing to summer or a winter before teeing on a dogleg or to a blind hole for instance? Do they have the facility to delay play to allow for a later inspection? Would the membership want it?

Another place I know of accepted green fees after the comp, but had an agreement with the club not to alter conditions after the comp had started (club instigated), this could lead to greens been changed after the comp and members could complain of preferential treatment (remember it was the clubs request for conditions to be left as it started, frost been the most common cause of issues). The club could have gone out later, but didn't want to and I think the current situation is conditions ahead of play can change.

It's not always as simple as it would seem to us, saw in a later post of yours that you intimated the HGC wouldn't discuss the matter. I'd be tempted ask them to reconsider or at least explain.

 

[Robobum]

His attitude, one that is seemingly shared by the other staff too, is that members are a nuisance.

Someone mentioned a lack of pride. I agree and think that is the case, all you get is reasons why something can't be done rather than "look what we can/ are doing"

Good club, lost direction over the 10yrs I've been there.

 

[SGC001]

Not sure whether you mean the Mgr or Gk, guessing manager but whist a course can run without members memberships is a common model and a course creates jobs for those involved in the upkeep, maintenance and running of a club.

I'd suggested a GK forum at my first club, a a chance to help understanding and communication (didn't happen). If they are looking at what can and could be done they can tell you, or find out issues the membership have and try to solve or explain reasons why it can't be done (if indeed it can't be done). Sometimes there can be genuine reasons, sometimes they might have missed and opportunity or not a thought of a way that it could be done and sometimes they might be able to strike a balance, but communication is a must.

An example with tee times due to frost and issues it can give a course:
I played St Andrews a few winters back, tee time 10:12ish. The course was closed until 10:00. In this case all those before lost their tee time. I got lucky.

Imagine it in the case of a HGC with a slight difference not closed earlier but temps:
They could cancel the comp for the day.
They could let all early members play, change greens at 10:00 and exclude the early (or late) runners from the comp.
They could run 2 comps.
They could let the early golfers play later and run it.
They could stay on temps all day.
They could alter greens ahead of play
They could push everybody's tee time back 2 hours or so.
...

What do their members want, some playing early might not be able to move late, some might object to not been allowed in the comp, it might not be practical to have 2 comps. They may have balloted the members in the past to decide how they deal with it, maybe they need a new ballot if they have.

Whatever they do some members will likely be less than happy. They'd need to do the best they can for the membership imo, but I'm also trying to say it's not always that easy and the Mgr may feel he's always wrong as you can't please everyone perhaps leading to the suggestion you made about nuisance (not really the best way of looking at things). I do know of one course that doesn't bother with membership and runs on visitor income alone.

 

[pbrown7582]

His attitude, one that is seemingly shared by the other staff too, is that members are a nuisance.

Someone mentioned a lack of pride. I agree and think that is the case, all you get is reasons why something can't be done rather than "look what we can/ are doing"

Good club, lost direction over the 10yrs I've been there.

got to be tempting to look for a new hypothetical golf club with that sort of attitude from HGK and manager?

 

[Robobum]

Not sure whether you mean the Mgr or Gk, guessing manager but whist a course can run without members memberships is a common model and a course creates jobs for those involved in the upkeep, maintenance and running of a club.

I'd suggested a GK forum at my first club, a a chance to help understanding and communication (didn't happen). If they are looking at what can and could be done they can tell you, or find out issues the membership have and try to solve or explain reasons why it can't be done (if indeed it can't be done). Sometimes there can be genuine reasons, sometimes they might have missed and opportunity or not a thought of a way that it could be done and sometimes they might be able to strike a balance, but communication is a must.

An example with tee times due to frost and issues it can give a course:
I played St Andrews a few winters back, tee time 10:12ish. The course was closed until 10:00. In this case all those before lost their tee time. I got lucky.

Imagine it in the case of a HGC with a slight difference not closed earlier but temps:
They could cancel the comp for the day.
They could let all early members play, change greens at 10:00 and exclude the early (or late) runners from the comp.
They could run 2 comps.
They could let the early golfers play later and run it.
They could stay on temps all day.
They could alter greens ahead of play
They could push everybody's tee time back 2 hours or so.
...

What do their members want, some playing early might not be able to move late, some might object to not been allowed in the comp, it might not be practical to have 2 comps. They may have balloted the members in the past to decide how they deal with it, maybe they need a new ballot if they have.

Whatever they do some members will likely be less than happy. They'd need to do the best they can for the membership imo, but I'm also trying to say it's not always that easy and the Mgr may feel he's always wrong as you can't please everyone perhaps leading to the suggestion you made about nuisance (not really the best way of looking at things). I do know of one course that doesn't bother with membership and runs on visitor income alone.

I'll give you an example or two:

Asked for GK news bulletins - Done once, never to be seen again!
Asked for clarification as to why course is in poorest condition at weekends due to "duty" GK only. (Min time poss on site) - told that the course is in great condition and GKs do best job.
Volunteered to help set up social media feeds and promote club - not willing to discuss situation
Sent many examples of how other clubs keep members informed on course - no reply, no interest.

I've never been a car park golfer - 10yrs membership, 10yrs representing A team, 2yrs A team capt, 2 times club champ......blah blah blah.
But I am moving closer and closer to being one! That saddens me

 

[Doon frae Troon]

That's what I don't get, You supposedly pay for a qualified greenkeeper then the course is re opened by a pro and a greens committee. Not having a go at your course but it amazes me, Why pay for a qualified greenkeeper in the 1st place?

Get real, you expect a qualified greenkeeper to be paid to wait around all weekend to decide if the course should re-open for a few members to play.

 

[SGC001]

I'll give you an example or two:

Asked for GK news bulletins - Done once, never to be seen again!
Asked for clarification as to why course is in poorest condition at weekends due to "duty" GK only. (Min time poss on site) - told that the course is in great condition and GKs do best job.
Volunteered to help set up social media feeds and promote club - not willing to discuss situation
Sent many examples of how other clubs keep members informed on course - no reply, no interest.

I've never been a car park golfer - 10yrs membership, 10yrs representing A team, 2yrs A team capt, 2 times club champ......blah blah blah.
But I am moving closer and closer to being one! That saddens me

I'm loathe to criticize, but it sounds like if I were in their shoes I'd hope I'd be doing things differently, particularly when people who are willing to make suggestions, offer to help and getting actively involved are becoming disgruntled. Although I'd extend that to all members not just those who involve themselves in the HGC.

Hope things improve for you, whatever you decide.

 

[Robobum]

Get real, you expect a qualified greenkeeper to be paid to wait around all weekend to decide if the course should re-open for a few members to play.

Strange view that. £100 for a staff member or potential loss of £100s in green fees and extras?

Are there no other jobs to be done. Machine maintenance? Tree trimming? Tee marker painting? Bench varnishing? Etc etc

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I was a course manager at a club that used to boast 'never closed'.
Shortly after I was appointed I closed the course one Saturday morning.
I was got a call from the MD to get up to the club sharpish and explain my reasons.

When I arrived the MD and Captain were waiting for me in the car park and wanted me to go into the clubhouse and explain to the 40+ members why they could not play.
I refused and asked them to accompany me onto the course.

It was early spring and in the early hours there had been quite a heavy unexpected snow fall.
This had cleared quite quickly but it then froze sharply.
This resulted in the hole cups frozen solid to the flagsticks, like an ice lolly.
The morning was warm and sunny and it was obvious a rapid thaw was in progress.
If I had allowed play it would have done untold damage to the greens.

The MD and Captain immediately saw my side, I accepted their apology. They then and asked me to go into the clubhouse and explain to the members.
I refused and told them that as they had not supported my initial decision that was their job.

They always accepted any decisions I made with good grace after that.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Strange view that. £100 for a staff member or potential loss of £100s in green fees and extras?

Are there no other jobs to be done. Machine maintenance? Tree trimming? Tee marker painting? Bench varnishing? Etc etc

Changing the holes, cutting the fairways and greens. [as they would be short staffed weekdays]

 

[Robobum]

I was a course manager at a club that used to boast 'never closed'.
Shortly after I was appointed I closed the course one Saturday morning.
I was got a call from the MD to get up to the club sharpish and explain my reasons.

When I arrived the MD and Captain were waiting for me in the car park and wanted me to go into the clubhouse and explain to the 40+ members why they could not play.
I refused and asked them to accompany me onto the course.

It was early spring and in the early hours there had been quite a heavy unexpected snow fall.
This had cleared quite quickly but it then froze sharply.
This resulted in the hole cups frozen solid to the flagsticks, like an ice lolly.
The morning was warm and sunny and it was obvious a rapid thaw was in progress.
If I had allowed play it would have done untold damage to the greens.

The MD and Captain immediately saw my side, I accepted their apology. They then and asked me to go into the clubhouse and explain to the members.
I refused and told them that as they had not supported my initial decision that was their job.

They always accepted any decisions I made with good grace after that.

Would it have been a good idea to have typed that up quickly and pinned it around for those members to see before they got to the uninformed angry stage?

Communication, communication, communication!

 

[Robobum]

Changing the holes, cutting the fairways and greens. [as they would be short staffed weekdays]

Would the greens want traffic on them if the course is shut?

 

[Deleted member 17920]

Get real, you expect a qualified greenkeeper to be paid to wait around all weekend to decide if the course should re-open for a few members to play.

Not at all, some of the course managers I worked for in my time had an enormous amount of pride and treated the course like it was their garden. If the course was closed in the morning they would wait around and see what could be done and if there was a chance it could have been opened. Most are salaried so it wouldn't have cost to keep them there.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Would it have been a good idea to have typed that up quickly and pinned it around for those members to see before they got to the uninformed angry stage?

Communication, communication, communication!

I was not there, one of my greenstaff made the decision and informed me about 7.00am at home.
Problem was the MD thought he could over rule the decision passed on by the young assistant pro.

 

[Robobum]

I was not there, one of my greenstaff made the decision and informed me about 7.00am at home.
Problem was the MD thought he could over rule the decision passed on by the young assistant pro.

That's an issue at a lot of places. There are genuinely spot on reasons why things are being done/ not done to the course but without that being communicated to the members, they are just left to guess and whisper and arrive at their own conclusions as o the laziness/ effectiveness of the HGK in the first place.

I've been sat in the office today, thinking of just how much reporting I have to do so that the board are aware of the landscape the business is operating in. Communicating that is king to keep them from chewing my arse. A weekly/ monthly bulletin from the HGK to the members should be a bare minimum shouldn't it?

Hey ho - I've just had an email asking me to pay my subs...............might have to ponder on that for a little while!!!!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

IMO that seems to be the problem with the modern workplace........too many folk communicating and measuring......very few folk actually working.

Bottom line with this thread is that it is about budgets.
Muirfield would never have had the problem that HGC had, but there again they employ 13 greenstaff for 18 holes.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

But Muirfield to be honest is a world away from a members club or council run muni. They have the resources and the money. Most are struggling to balance books as it is and another few heads at decent wedge for qualified staff, is not going to improve that situation