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Holed or not?

Not 100 per cent clear, the fuzzy two dimensional photo is not quite up to the task. To be holed when not touching the flagstick it must be entirely within the limits of the outside of the hole AND below the level of the green. If part of the ball is embedded in ground outside the 'circle' of the outer hole limits, then not holed.
 
In my opinion it is holed.

The liner is required to be below the top of the hole and from that photo the top of the ball is lower than the top of the liner.
 
salfordlad said:
Not 100 per cent clear, the fuzzy two dimensional photo is not quite up to the task. To be holed when not touching the flagstick it must be entirely within the limits of the outside of the hole AND below the level of the green. If part of the ball is embedded in ground outside the 'circle' of the outer hole limits, then not holed.
Click to expand...
This was in a golf magazine in2020.

We enlisted the help of Thomas Pagel, the USGA’s Senior Director of the Rules of Golf, to sort through it. The answer, he said, is simpler than you might think.

“When dealing with a ball embedded in the side of the hole, we are only concerned with the entire ball being below the surface of the green, even is part of the ball is outside the circumference of the hole,” he wrote in an email. “If the entire ball is below the surface, the ball is holed. If the entire ball is not below the surface, the ball is not holed.”

He added that the “Definition of Holed” section of the rulebook takes precedence. Rule 13.2c, he said, exists for those times the ball is leaning against the flagstick but hasn’t fallen to the bottom of the cup — but isn’t embedded.

“But when dealing with a ball embedded in the side of the hole, this special case is not applicable because when the ball is embedded, generally speaking, the ball falling to the bottom of the hole is not dictated by the flagstick being there – it’s the ball being plugged into the putting green that is preventing it from falling in.”
 
rulefan said:
This was in a golf magazine in2020.

We enlisted the help of Thomas Pagel, the USGA’s Senior Director of the Rules of Golf, to sort through it. The answer, he said, is simpler than you might think.

“When dealing with a ball embedded in the side of the hole, we are only concerned with the entire ball being below the surface of the green, even is part of the ball is outside the circumference of the hole,” he wrote in an email. “If the entire ball is below the surface, the ball is holed. If the entire ball is not below the surface, the ball is not holed.”

He added that the “Definition of Holed” section of the rulebook takes precedence. Rule 13.2c, he said, exists for those times the ball is leaning against the flagstick but hasn’t fallen to the bottom of the cup — but isn’t embedded.

“But when dealing with a ball embedded in the side of the hole, this special case is not applicable because when the ball is embedded, generally speaking, the ball falling to the bottom of the hole is not dictated by the flagstick being there – it’s the ball being plugged into the putting green that is preventing it from falling in.”
Click to expand...
I've now found the earlier USGA reference I was mis-remembering here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/RulesOfGolf/permalink/2998179416904401/
USGA answer was "When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed - Interpretation Holed/1. Therefore, if this ball is not entirely below the surface of the green, it’s not holed."
 
I don't believe the ball is embedded. Imo, it flew in from the left of the photo and broke the edge of the hole. But it is also not holed since it is not touching the flagstick.
 
The only thing preventing the ball from touching the flagstick appears to be the broken hole liner, which itself appears to be touching the stick to me (you are free to argue otherwise....I will concede that the picture is not conclusive).

If you accept that the ball is touching the liner, which is touching the flagstick....are you saying that the ball is not holed because the ball itself is not touching the flagstick? How would you rule if the the ball had a leaf, or a lump of mud that was between it and the flagstick (but otherwise met the condition of being partly below the putting surface) ??
 
Definitely holed. The ball is within the circumference of the hole and a substantial amount is below the putting surface.

For those who think it isn't - what the hell do you do with it then? Mark it, repair the hole, replace the ball and it falls in the hole doesn't it? If you replace it somewhere where it doesn't fall in the hole, then you've replaced it in the wrong place.
 
Orikoru said:
Definitely holed. The ball is within the circumference of the hole and a substantial amount is below the putting surface.

For those who think it isn't - what the hell do you do with it then? Mark it, repair the hole, replace the ball and it falls in the hole doesn't it? If you replace it somewhere where it doesn't fall in the hole, then you've replaced it in the wrong place.
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I think it will be like your ball plugging on a steep slope.
If the ball won’t stay when replaced you have to find the nearest point where it will.
Not nearer the hole.
You would struggle to get nearer than that one.
I would say it’s holed
Are those liners classed as a movable obstruction as they should not be there.?
 
Orikoru said:
Definitely holed. The ball is within the circumference of the hole and a substantial amount is below the putting surface.

For those who think it isn't - what the hell do you do with it then? Mark it, repair the hole, replace the ball and it falls in the hole doesn't it? If you replace it somewhere where it doesn't fall in the hole, then you've replaced it in the wrong place.
Click to expand...

As entertaining nonsense. this is surpassingly good. :D
 
Last edited:
rulie said:
I don't believe the ball is embedded. Imo, it flew in from the left of the photo and broke the edge of the hole. But it is also not holed since it is not touching the flagstick.
Click to expand...
There is no requirement in the definition of "holed" that the ball be touching the flagstick unless part of the ball is above the surface of the green. And there is no requirement for a ball below the surface of the green and within the hole to be partly embedded outside the hole. So the only boxes to be ticked here are a) ball is at rest in the hole (that's a tick on the photo) and b) entire ball is below the surface of the green (not 100 per cent sure from the photo but probably yes). If the flagstick is not part of the equation (as here) there is another way it can be in - courtesy of the USGA statements - partly embedded in the side of the hole and all of the ball below the surface. So a final answer on this photo depends only on whether all of the ball is below the surface of the green.

Have we missed anything? Any more bids?
 
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