Holed or not?

it does seem strange that as it is the collar preventing it from dropping and if it wasnt there the ball would be in the hole. most holes dont have collars fitted and in those cases the ball would be holed.

It also looks to me like the ball is wedged between the collar and the side of the hole not embedded
 
Given that posts #8 and #9 are clearly nonsense (after all, they are only written by experts who know what they are talking about, so who would actually believe them) then I'll have a go. Ball not holed, as there's some grass on the 'hole-side' of the ball between it & the flagstick. Clearly that's stopping it going in.
 
Orikoru said:
As you've not been able to answer me, I'll assume I was correct. (y)
Click to expand...
Orikoru said:
Definitely holed. The ball is within the circumference of the hole and a substantial amount is below the putting surface.

For those who think it isn't - what the hell do you do with it then? Mark it, repair the hole, replace the ball and it falls in the hole doesn't it? If you replace it somewhere where it doesn't fall in the hole, then you've replaced it in the wrong place.
Click to expand...

Do you mean this post ?

The correct answers were given in the thread but to help
1. If the ball is not resting again the flag then the “whole” ball must be below the circumference of the hole not a “substantial amount”

2. As the ball is not resting against the flag then the ball is not holed


3. You pick the ball up , repair them damage and then replace the ball as near as possible without the ball moving , so in this case on the edge of the hole

Hope that helps
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Do you mean this post ?

The correct answers were given in the thread but to help
1. If the ball is not resting again the flag then the “whole” ball must be below the circumference of the hole not a “substantial amount”

2. As the ball is not resting against the flag then the ball is not holed


3. You pick the ball up , repair them damage and then replace the ball as near as possible without the ball moving , so in this case on the edge of the hole

Hope that helps
Click to expand...
That doesn't make any sense. Anywhere else on the green you'd get done for replacing it in the wrong place wouldn't you?

Hard to see from the picture but I'd even say potentially the entire ball is below the surface. It's not actually embedded in the ground at all either, it's completely inside the hole. You'd have to be particularly mean-spirited to try and argue this hasn't gone in. Like, actively looking for reasons to ruin somebody's day.

What is golf's aversion to giving someone benefit of the doubt? The rules don't specifically mention what happens if the lining of the hole buckles and traps the ball, so everything anyone says on this matter is conjecture anyway.
 
The "equator" of the ball seems well below the bottom edge of the plastic collar. The shadow of the disrupted edge of the hole cast upon the ball seems to indicate to me that the top of the ball is below the surface of the green.
The sun must be quite high in the sky as a shadow of the flagstick is visible at the bottom of the hole.

I am trying to imagine a ruler placed across the top of the ball and whether there would be an air gap between it and the ball. I think that there would be one.
 
rulefan said:
This was in a golf magazine in2020.

We enlisted the help of Thomas Pagel, the USGA’s Senior Director of the Rules of Golf, to sort through it. The answer, he said, is simpler than you might think.

“When dealing with a ball embedded in the side of the hole, we are only concerned with the entire ball being below the surface of the green, even is part of the ball is outside the circumference of the hole,” he wrote in an email. “If the entire ball is below the surface, the ball is holed. If the entire ball is not below the surface, the ball is not holed.”

He added that the “Definition of Holed” section of the rulebook takes precedence. Rule 13.2c, he said, exists for those times the ball is leaning against the flagstick but hasn’t fallen to the bottom of the cup — but isn’t embedded.

“But when dealing with a ball embedded in the side of the hole, this special case is not applicable because when the ball is embedded, generally speaking, the ball falling to the bottom of the hole is not dictated by the flagstick being there – it’s the ball being plugged into the putting green that is preventing it from falling in.”
Click to expand...


Can I ask a follow up?

Working on the basis that the ball is not holed (because it doesn't meet the definition) If it is not holed then does it by default become an embedded ball on a putting green?

If embedded the rule for relief from an embedded ball on a putting green is specifically listed (I know you know :-) )

16.3 Embedded Ball
a. When Relief Is Allowed
Relief is allowed only when your ball is embedded in the general area. But if your ball is embedded on the putting green, you may mark the spot of your ball, lift and clean it, repair the damage, and replace your ball on its original spot.

After carrying out the above embedded ball instructions the ball will fall/drop into the hole and be holed? I can't see in rule 16 where it says if it doesn't remain on its original spot then replace it on nearest spot, any help pls ?
 
Really difficult one, the ball is in the circumference where the hole is cut out for the liner.
Hard to tell from photo if the ball is below the hole.
Hard to tell if the bit of grass is stuck between ball and flag stick as opposed to sitting on top.
In my opinion you’d need more pictures from different angles to get a true representation of the situation.
 
Orikoru said:
That doesn't make any sense. Anywhere else on the green you'd get done for replacing it in the wrong place wouldn't you?

Hard to see from the picture but I'd even say potentially the entire ball is below the surface. It's not actually embedded in the ground at all either, it's completely inside the hole. You'd have to be particularly mean-spirited to try and argue this hasn't gone in. Like, actively looking for reasons to ruin somebody's day.

What is golf's aversion to giving someone benefit of the doubt? The rules don't specifically mention what happens if the lining of the hole buckles and traps the ball, so everything anyone says on this matter is conjecture anyway.
Click to expand...

Here is an example for you

You get a plugged lie on a slope and when you got to place it keeps moving ? What do you do ?

How can you place a ball “in the hole”

The rules are clear for an embedded ball on the green
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Here is an example for you

You get a plugged lie on a slope and when you got to place it keeps moving ? What do you do ?

How can you place a ball “in the hole”

The rules are clear for an embedded ball on the green
Click to expand...
This is all irrelevant nonsense since we're talking about a unique scenario, where to all intents and purposes, the ball is inside the bloody hole already. It's not on a slope or embedded in the green. It's embedded in the hole lining which is inside the hole. IMO the rules quoted don't cover that.

Voyager EMH said:
The "equator" of the ball seems well below the bottom edge of the plastic collar. The shadow of the disrupted edge of the hole cast upon the ball seems to indicate to me that the top of the ball is below the surface of the green.
The sun must be quite high in the sky as a shadow of the flagstick is visible at the bottom of the hole.

I am trying to imagine a ruler placed across the top of the ball and whether there would be an air gap between it and the ball. I think that there would be one.
Click to expand...
Agree with you. It really does look like it could all be below the surface.

I just hate this prevailing golf rules attitude that seems to be, when in doubt, apply the ruling that screws over the player as much as possible. What kind of man looks at that scenario in the OP and actively tries to rule against it being in the hole when it's clearly in the sodding hole?
 
Orikoru said:
This is all irrelevant nonsense since we're talking about a unique scenario, where to all intents and purposes, the ball is inside the bloody hole already. It's not on a slope or embedded in the green. It's embedded in the hole lining which is inside the hole. IMO the rules quoted don't cover that.


Agree with you. It really does look like it could all be below the surface.

I just hate this prevailing golf rules attitude that seems to be, when in doubt, apply the ruling that screws over the player as much as possible. What kind of man looks at that scenario in the OP and actively tries to rule against it being in the hole when it's clearly in the sodding hole?
Click to expand...

?‍♂️
it’s not “irrelevant” nonsense at all and if you even had a basic understanding and grasp of the rules then you would be able to see that.

A ball is only holed when the “whole ball” is below the circumference of the hole or only partial when resting against the flag

So as you can’t see 100% that the whole ball is below the circumference of the hole and the ball is not resting directly against the flag then the ball is not holed - pick up the ball , repair and then place on the green as close as possible to the spot where the ball can be at rest
 
Liverpoolphil said:
?‍♂️
it’s not “irrelevant” nonsense at all and if you even had a basic understanding and grasp of the rules then you would be able to see that.

A ball is only holed when the “whole ball” is below the circumference of the hole or only partial when resting against the flag

So as you can’t see 100% that the whole ball is below the circumference of the hole and the ball is not resting directly against the flag then the ball is not holed - pick up the ball , repair and then place on the green as close as possible to the spot where the ball can be at rest
Click to expand...

You can’t tell from that photo if the whole ball is below or not, you’d need extra pictures from different angles to be sure?
 
BrianM said:
You can’t tell from that photo if the whole ball is below or not, you’d need extra pictures from different angles to be sure?
Click to expand...

And if you can’t tell then you go with the ball is not below the circumference- this scenario and a number of similar ones has gone round the houses over the years with the result the same and conclusion the same from all the rules officials etc

If the whole ball is shown to be below the circumference then the next questions will about the liner etc
 
Orikoru said:
This is all irrelevant nonsense since we're talking about a unique scenario,
Click to expand...
Not unique.

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And there are more out there
 
Liverpoolphil said:
And if you can’t tell then you go with the ball is not below the circumference- this scenario and a number of similar ones has gone round the houses over the years with the result the same and conclusion the same from all the rules officials etc

If the whole ball is shown to be below the circumference then the next questions will about the liner etc
Click to expand...

I agree with you, The only people that will know are the people playing or if better pictures are produced to give a conclusive answer.
 
Orikoru said:
This is all irrelevant nonsense since we're talking about a unique scenario, where to all intents and purposes, the ball is inside the bloody hole already. It's not on a slope or embedded in the green. It's embedded in the hole lining which is inside the hole. IMO the rules quoted don't cover that.


Agree with you. It really does look like it could all be below the surface.

I just hate this prevailing golf rules attitude that seems to be, when in doubt, apply the ruling that screws over the player as much as possible. What kind of man looks at that scenario in the OP and actively tries to rule against it being in the hole when it's clearly in the sodding hole?
Click to expand...

Skipping over that absurd notion that we want to screw over the players, this man looks at the situation in the photo and says, you can't make judgments from a photo - you need to see it, for real, in three dimensions. And, by the way, the ball is either fully in the hole or not. There is no qualified in-between called "to all intents and purposes".

I have my suspicions that this and other similar photos have all been manufactured, anyway.
 
Colin L said:
Skipping over that absurd notion that we want to screw over the players, this man looks at the situation in the photo and says, you can't make judgments from a photo - you need to see it, for real, in three dimensions. And, by the way, the ball is either fully in the hole or not. There is no qualified in-between called "to all intents and purposes".

I have my suspicions that this and other similar photos have all been manufactured, anyway.
Click to expand...

Yup me too, they are about as believable as Nessie pics :sneaky:
 
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