Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
3 actually
Hogan & rolling the wrists
- Thread starter Maninblack4612
- Start date
Foxholer
Blackballed
Er...Which is the 3rd?
Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
Pronate / supinate
Wolf
Well-known member
Not scientifically true I'm afraid the process of pronation for the hand/wrist is actually the job of the Pronator teres muscle which is a smaller muscle on the inner upper forearm and supination is done by the supinator muscle which is formed effectively of 2 fibres that sit in the supinator crest of the ulna.
So the wrist cannot Pronate or supinate indepently as your suggesting for a 3rd axis. That action is solely performed by the smaller muscles that make up the ulna, radial axis. The wrist movement is a by product because they're at the end of the arm. So the wrist does only have 2 axis being anteroposterior (ulna, radial axis) & transverse axis (flexion and extension)
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Foxholer
Blackballed
Not movements of the wrist!
They are movements of the forearm!
Edit: Beaten by Wolf.
Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
That's me corrected then!
Foxholer
Blackballed
And, from memory - so quite possibly not correct - Mr Hogan too! Again, from memory, that was 'the one error/misconception' identified/pointed out in '5 Lessons'.
Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
Jim Hardy says the wrists move 3 different ways. Think he means you can release the club three different ways.
Foxholer
Blackballed
That's slightly, but significantly, different from 'there are 3 different axes or wrist movement'!
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
When you look at images of people like Garcia that look like he is creating a big angle with his wrists in the transition is an illusion. What he is actually doing is flattening out the shaft in the downswingwhich looks like a big wrist hinge from a front view.
I reiterate, the arms and wrists should only move in an up and down motion,. To prove this address a ball lift the club up and over your right shoulder, now turn your back to the target and push your arms out. You will be in a perfect backswing position with no manipulation of the wrists. The opposite of this in the downswing coupled with body rotation is how we strike the ball.
Think of hitting a nail with a hammer, would there be any rotation of the wrists.
Also, imagine a ball sat on a tee at waist height so you are stood upright. If you turn to strike the ball off this high tee there will be no rotation of the wrists. Striking the ball off the ground is this same action bent forward.
I reiterate, the arms and wrists should only move in an up and down motion,. To prove this address a ball lift the club up and over your right shoulder, now turn your back to the target and push your arms out. You will be in a perfect backswing position with no manipulation of the wrists. The opposite of this in the downswing coupled with body rotation is how we strike the ball.
Think of hitting a nail with a hammer, would there be any rotation of the wrists.
Also, imagine a ball sat on a tee at waist height so you are stood upright. If you turn to strike the ball off this high tee there will be no rotation of the wrists. Striking the ball off the ground is this same action bent forward.
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Foxholer
Blackballed
This is a ridiculously bad/non-relevant analogy! That action would only be used if you were trying to bash the ball (or perhaps the tee) into the ground!
I'm not convinced about the 'ball on a waist height' one either, (baseball/double-handed tennis swing). There IS rotation of the wrists (supination) in a (Hogan style) golf swing imo, but it's more an effect of the swing post strike, not part of the downswing.
Btw. There comes a point in most analogies where the analogy 'fails'. The baseball/tennis one (body not leaning) for golf swing (body leaning) fails in the post-strike area. This is because in the analogy, there is freedom to continue the same movement as per pre-strike. In Golf, the post-strike area is restricted BECAUSE of the leaning-forward, so supination is how that restriction is overcome!
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Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
Can't agree with this for everybody. Jim Hardy, "The Plane Truth", page 35, says "As you turn past the midway point in the backswing, your left forearm should begin to turn in a clockwise motion so that the back of the forearm faces the sky". Jim Hardy is one of the world's best teachers, I'd rather take his word for it. Also, this is how my swing feels.
The above is Jim describing the "One Plane" swing, where the arms & shoulders at the top are on the same plane, a" flat" swing, you could call it, like Kuchar. For the two plane swing he says (page 47) "you will not need to pronate your left forearm as you do in the one plane backswing"
So I would guess that you are a two plane swinger. The two distinct types of swing is the reason why you find instructors writing in mags like Golf Monthly giving what looks like conflicting advice.
SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
Am sat here like an idiot on the settee rolling me wrist and rotating forearms and thinking that is actually a fair point. So is there a differance.
bobmac
Major Champion
Only if it means you cant return the clubface back square to the ball consistently
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
Reason I ask, I had a lesson because my swing path was out to in and I was hitting across the ball with an open face. I had a lesson where I was shown how to take the club away square and hit it square on the return. Hey presto I have never hit the ball as straight. Chuffed to bits I am. Anyway, for some reason I tried slightly rolling the wrists not turning the forearms. It created a lovely draw, but ended up with me going down the RHS of the fairway. However when really going after the ball it created a hook. Which I have never done. So am thinking is it differant rolling the wrists to rotating the forearm.
Foxholer
Blackballed
No it's not!
As stated earlier - and backed up by anatomnical evidence - 'rolling the wrists' is actually 'rotating the forearms'! Rolling the wrists is anatimically impossible, but is an observation of what happens when the forearms are rotated.
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
Cheers foxy me man. ?
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Of course you are free to believe what you wish. Can you explain to me what the problem is to which rolling the wrists is the solution?
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
If that's your opinion then thats your perogotive, I disagree but find little point in suggesting your opinion is ridiculous.
When hitting most clubs the task with the club should be bashing the ground, as you put it. The ball should be struck as the club continues its path into the ground, the angle the club descends into the ground should alter slightly as the club gets longer though. The only exception to this would be the Driver and Putter.
There will be a small rotation of the forearms as the club travels to the top of the backswing but this is only to make the arms more relaxed. There should be no deliberate rolling.
I repeat, the wrists only set in an up and down method, any other movement creates a moving target that will encourage erratic and inconsistent ball striking unless the person has exceptional timing.
Think about it. If you designed a machine to strike a ball consistently would you allow the point where the shaft was gripped to rotate through impact? Look at the testing machine 'Iron Byron' that doesn't rotate the shaft and hits the ball out the middle every time.
This guy in the video is very mich in line with my thinking:
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