Hogan & rolling the wrists

[Maninblack4612]

Found this on the Plane Truth (Jim Hardy) Facebook page, quote by Ben Hogan. ”I hit the ball too low and hooked badly. I was trying to open the club and delay the crossover in the downswing to stop the hook and hit the ball higher. That didn’t work so I reversed it and opened the club as much as I could in the backswing and then tried to close the club and crossover as soon as I could in the downswing. Immediately the ball went higher and didn’t hook “ This is the complete opposite of what I have been taught for years, don't roll the wrists, but is more or less what Hardy teaches for his "One Plane" swing. The idea is that, early in the downswing, you close the face so that the face is parallel to the swing plane and turn the entire upper body & arms into the ball. with face & swing plane aligned the worst you can do is hit a slight push or pull.

I have just tried this at the range. I thought it would lead to wild inaccuracy but the opposite was true. My bad shot is a weak, powerless push fade, this never happened doing the above. The shots felt effortless and were remarkably straight. Recently Bobmac looked at a video of my swing & remarked on the amount of wrist rolling I do. I respect his opinion a lot & would love to hear his thoughts on this. Apologies, I don't know where the Hogan quote came from but I've no doubt it is authentic.

What thoughts / experiences has anyone got?

 

[bobmac]

If something works for you and is repeatable, especially under pressure, go for it.
Having said that, I would never encourage anyone to roll their wrists, it's just asking for trouble and inconsistency.

As the wrists are controlled by fast twitch muscles, trying to open the face on the backswing and square it back up on the downswing would be very difficult to do consistently especially under pressure.
Better to keep the clubface square throughout the swing and let the big slow twitch muscles do the work.
That goes for all shots including putting.
Kind of makes sense to me.

 

[Maninblack4612]

If something works for you and is repeatable, especially under pressure, go for it.
Having said that, I would never encourage anyone to roll their wrists, it's just asking for trouble and inconsistency.

As the wrists are controlled by fast twitch muscles, trying to open the face on the backswing and square it back up on the downswing would be very difficult to do consistently especially under pressure.
Better to keep the clubface square throughout the swing and let the big slow twitch muscles do the work.
That goes for all shots including putting.
Kind of makes sense to me.

It makes sense to me too, Bob, but this is what Hogan did & what Jim Hardy, one of the world's best coaches, advocates. His description is to allow the left forearm to rotate clockwise. I find it impossible to complete the backswing without doing this (as you've seen!), it's a quite natural move - not that that makes it correct. It seems that Hogan did this to the extreme. Is it so hard to repeat if you start the squaring early in the downswing? I don't know but I'm going to try it since it's winter & there's nothing riding on what I score.

 

[bobmac]

It makes sense to me too, Bob, but this is what Hogan did & what Jim Hardy, one of the world's best coaches, advocates. His description is to allow the left forearm to rotate clockwise. I find it impossible to complete the backswing without doing this (as you've seen!), it's a quite natural move - not that that makes it correct. It seems that Hogan did this to the extreme. Is it so hard to repeat if you start the squaring early in the downswing? I don't know but I'm going to try it since it's winter & there's nothing riding on what I score.

If it doesn't make sense, why do it ?
How much wrist roll is there and how do you know you're opening and closing the same amount at high speed?
Although if it is an itch you want to scratch, then I guess this is the time of year to try it.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/hank-haney-driving-fault#
and there are many more.

 

[virtuocity]

Fore left

 

[Maninblack4612]

Fore left

Not once!

 

[Depreston]

Is there a difference between rolling the wrists and rotating the forearms?!?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

When a young teen trying to start playing I built my swing by copying Hogan's out of the book - stance, grip - the lot.

After I got it going for 30yrs I hit a low draw - often turning into a hook. What a surprise there. But the swing that I learned and grooved was flawed. I wasn't doing everything that Hogan taught in his book. When I went back to the book and thought about 'opening' the clubface on the backswing and then 'closing' it on the way back I could sort it. To be honest I don't actually know what my 'thinking' was actually doing in respect of hands, arms and rotation. But it worked.

But as that wasn't the only problem with the swing I grooved I don't do this no more as I have had to rebuild my flawed swing.

 

[SocketRocket]

It makes sense to me too, Bob, but this is what Hogan did & what Jim Hardy, one of the world's best coaches, advocates. His description is to allow the left forearm to rotate clockwise. I find it impossible to complete the backswing without doing this (as you've seen!), it's a quite natural move - not that that makes it correct. It seems that Hogan did this to the extreme. Is it so hard to repeat if you start the squaring early in the downswing? I don't know but I'm going to try it since it's winter & there's nothing riding on what I score.

If you look at the pictures in Hogan's 5 lessons he doesn't just roll his wrists he turns them down so the knuckles on his left hand point downwards through impact and he has a foreward bow in his left wrist, this delofts the clubface and squares it.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Couldn't get the toe almost pointing to the ground without rotating the forearm / rolling the wrists.

 

[bobmac]

View attachment 28511

Couldn't get the toe almost pointing to the ground without rotating the forearm / rolling the wrists.

Not sure what you mean.
Are you saying to get to that position you have to roll your forearms ?

 

[Maninblack4612]

Not sure what you mean.
Are you saying to get to that position you have to roll your forearms ?

I would have thought so. I just think that it's curious that one of the straightest hitters of all time used a method reputed to lead to inaccuracy.

The more I learn about the game the less I understand.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Tried it out on the course today. Only works on the range!

 

[Depreston]

Tried it out on the course today. Only works on the range!

What happened? Hooks?

 

[Maninblack4612]

What happened? Hooks?

As predicted, inconsistency, pushes, hooks, fats

 

[mteam]

As predicted, inconsistency, pushes, hooks, fats

These would all be classed as shallow misses in Jim's teachings

 

[Maninblack4612]

These would all be classed as shallow misses in Jim's teachings

You're dead right. My habit of losing spine angle on both backswing & downswing.

 

[SocketRocket]

View attachment 28511

Couldn't get the toe almost pointing to the ground without rotating the forearm / rolling the wrists.

Why pointing to the ground. If you look at Ben's clubface its on plane with his left arm.

 

[bobmac]

Why pointing to the ground. If you look at Ben's clubface its on plane with his left arm.

So it's almost pointing to the ground

 

[Maninblack4612]

Why pointing to the ground. If you look at Ben's clubface its on plane with his left arm.

Compare with someone like Dustin Johnson, where the club face just about faces the sky at the top.