Hitting into the Gallery.. again

[sunshine]

Why don't you really say what you mean. ? No need to be shy?

Look, if the shout can be heard, then they should shout. If it cannot at that distance on a spectatored golf course, then what I suggested might be a suitable warning.
Please acknowledge that if a shout cannot be heard, it is useless shouting and leaving it at that, isn't it?
At no point am I , nor Foxholer, suggesting there should be no warning.
Please read what I say and not reply as if I am supporting a no warning scenario.
I have not been on a golf course spectating in a Major when players are driving 300 yds, so I do not know for sure whether a shout can be heard.
AsI say,I think this should be addressed by the golf authorities in an open manner, as to the best and therefore required way to proceed.

I've highlighted two bits in bold. Basically you are recognising you don't know if a shout can be heard so you are invalidating your points. Why are you even bothering commenting on this thread when you openly admit you don't know what you're talking about? Your contribution is drivel.

For your benefit, shouts of fore from the tee can easily be heard from 300 yards away at a major. Actually what happens is other people pick up on the shouts and join in, especially people who have followed the flight and can see if it's about to hit spectators.

 

[sunshine]

Fore left and fore right is also much better than just fore.

I shout fore left or right. But I have to admit, when I hear the shouts myself, I'm never able to make out if left or right means it's coming at me or someone on the other side of the hole

 

[clubchamp98]

I shout fore left or right. But I have to admit, when I hear the shouts myself, I'm never able to make out if left or right means it's coming at me or someone on the other side of the hole

Dosnt really matter where it’s coming from imo.
But it at least gives you a chance to protect yourself that’s the most important thing imo.
No shout and your not expecting it.

 

[woofers]

From the BMW Event at Wentworth Ticket Terms and Conditions:

65. EACH TICKET HOLDER ADMITTED TO THE VENUE ACKNOWLEDGES THAT THEIR PRESENCE AND/OR MOVEMENT IN AND AROUND THE VENUE IS AT THEIR OWN RISK AND ACCEPTS THE RISKS AND DANGERS IN ATTENDING A GOLF TOURNAMENT, INCLUDING THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING STRUCK BY AN ERRANT GOLF BALL AND THOSE RELATING TO ATTENDING A SPORTING COMPETITION IN A GOLF COURSE ENVIRONMENT EXPOSED TO THE NATURAL ELEMENTS. BY ENTERING THE VENUE ACKNOWLEDGING SUCH RISKS, ALL PERSONS ACCEPT THEIR OWN GENERAL PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES AND OTHERS FROM SUCH RISKS SO FAR AS IS REASONABLY PRACTICABLE, IN PARTICULAR BY WEARING FOOTWEAR AND CLOTHING APPROPRIATE FOR PREVAILING WEATHER AND GROUND CONDITIONS.

66. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, NEITHER PGA EUROPEAN TOUR NOR ANY OFFICIAL TICKETING AGENT NOR ANY AUTHORISED AGENT NOR ANY AUTHORISED PERSON NOR ANY PLAYER OR CADDIE PARTICIPATING IN THE EVENT SHALL BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOSS, DAMAGE AND/OR HARM, INCLUDING (WITHOUT LIMITATION) BODILY OR MENTAL HARM, PERSONAL PROPERTY DAMAGE OR ANY LOSS, LOSS OF PROFIT, BUSINESS OR OPPORTUNITY, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL LOSS, SPECIAL DAMAGES OR ANY OTHER LOSS AND/OR HARM HOWSOEVER ARISING FROM THE EVENT (INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, ARISING AS A RESULT OF THE CANCELLATION OR POSTPONEMENT OF THE SAME IN EACH CASE) AND/OR OCCURRING DURING THEIR ATTENDANCE AT THE VENUE AND, WITHOUT LIMITATION TO THE FOREGOING, EACH TICKET HOLDER AGREES THAT NO CLAIM, COMPLAINT OR PROCEEDING WILL BE BROUGHT IN RELATION TO THE FOREGOING

67. EACH TICKET HOLDER SHALL INDEMNIFY AND HOLD PGA EUROPEAN TOUR, THE OFFICIAL TICKETING AGENTS, THE AUTHORISED AGENTS AND ALL AUTHORISED PERSONS HARMLESS FROM AND AGAINST ALL LOSS, DAMAGES AND LIABILITIES, INCLUDING (WITHOUT LIMITATION) BODILY OR MENTAL HARM, PERSONAL PROPERTY DAMAGE OR LOSS, LOSS OF PROFIT, BUSINESS OR OPPORTUNITY, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL LOSS, SPECIAL DAMAGES OR ANY OTHER LOSS AND/OR HARM HOWSOEVER ARISING (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE COSTS OF ENFORCEMENT OR ATTEMPTED ENFORCEMENT OF THESE CONDITIONS), SUFFERED OR INCURRED BY ANY OF THEM IN CONNECTION WITH, RESULTING FROM, OR ARISING OUT OF, A BREACH BY THE TICKET HOLDER OF ANY OF THESE CONDITIONS.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

With a gale in my face I know that a shout of ‘fore left‘ or ‘fore right‘ is quite unlikely to be heard - but I must still holler out as loud as I can...indeed in extremis if the risk to another player is high, I think it’s best for multiple calls (by myself and my playing companions) to be made as they are more likely to be heard against the wind than a single shout.

 

[clubchamp98]

From the BMW Event at Wentworth Ticket Terms and Conditions:

65. EACH TICKET HOLDER ADMITTED TO THE VENUE ACKNOWLEDGES THAT THEIR PRESENCE AND/OR MOVEMENT IN AND AROUND THE VENUE IS AT THEIR OWN RISK AND ACCEPTS THE RISKS AND DANGERS IN ATTENDING A GOLF TOURNAMENT, INCLUDING THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING STRUCK BY AN ERRANT GOLF BALL AND THOSE RELATING TO ATTENDING A SPORTING COMPETITION IN A GOLF COURSE ENVIRONMENT EXPOSED TO THE NATURAL ELEMENTS. BY ENTERING THE VENUE ACKNOWLEDGING SUCH RISKS, ALL PERSONS ACCEPT THEIR OWN GENERAL PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES AND OTHERS FROM SUCH RISKS SO FAR AS IS REASONABLY PRACTICABLE, IN PARTICULAR BY WEARING FOOTWEAR AND CLOTHING APPROPRIATE FOR PREVAILING WEATHER AND GROUND CONDITIONS.

66. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, NEITHER PGA EUROPEAN TOUR NOR ANY OFFICIAL TICKETING AGENT NOR ANY AUTHORISED AGENT NOR ANY AUTHORISED PERSON NOR ANY PLAYER OR CADDIE PARTICIPATING IN THE EVENT SHALL BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOSS, DAMAGE AND/OR HARM, INCLUDING (WITHOUT LIMITATION) BODILY OR MENTAL HARM, PERSONAL PROPERTY DAMAGE OR ANY LOSS, LOSS OF PROFIT, BUSINESS OR OPPORTUNITY, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL LOSS, SPECIAL DAMAGES OR ANY OTHER LOSS AND/OR HARM HOWSOEVER ARISING FROM THE EVENT (INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, ARISING AS A RESULT OF THE CANCELLATION OR POSTPONEMENT OF THE SAME IN EACH CASE) AND/OR OCCURRING DURING THEIR ATTENDANCE AT THE VENUE AND, WITHOUT LIMITATION TO THE FOREGOING, EACH TICKET HOLDER AGREES THAT NO CLAIM, COMPLAINT OR PROCEEDING WILL BE BROUGHT IN RELATION TO THE FOREGOING

67. EACH TICKET HOLDER SHALL INDEMNIFY AND HOLD PGA EUROPEAN TOUR, THE OFFICIAL TICKETING AGENTS, THE AUTHORISED AGENTS AND ALL AUTHORISED PERSONS HARMLESS FROM AND AGAINST ALL LOSS, DAMAGES AND LIABILITIES, INCLUDING (WITHOUT LIMITATION) BODILY OR MENTAL HARM, PERSONAL PROPERTY DAMAGE OR LOSS, LOSS OF PROFIT, BUSINESS OR OPPORTUNITY, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL LOSS, SPECIAL DAMAGES OR ANY OTHER LOSS AND/OR HARM HOWSOEVER ARISING (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE COSTS OF ENFORCEMENT OR ATTEMPTED ENFORCEMENT OF THESE CONDITIONS), SUFFERED OR INCURRED BY ANY OF THEM IN CONNECTION WITH, RESULTING FROM, OR ARISING OUT OF, A BREACH BY THE TICKET HOLDER OF ANY OF THESE CONDITIONS.

Has anyone ever tested this disclaimer in court?
Given the hoops most businesses jump through to make their premises safe for people.
It might not be worth the paper it’s written on.
A good Barrister might take that apart.
Any Lawyers here ?

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Has anyone ever tested this disclaimer in court?
Given the hoops most businesses jump through to make their premises safe for people.
It might not be worth the paper it’s written on.
A good Barrister might take that apart.
Any Lawyers here ?

Who do you think will have written that disclaimer?

Lots of spectators have been hit by a ball at a tournament. So there has been plenty of opportunity to test the disclaimer.

 

[clubchamp98]

With a gale in my face I know that a shout of ‘fore left‘ or ‘fore right‘ is quite unlikely to be heard - but I must still holler out as loud as I can...indeed in extremis if the risk to another player is high, I think it’s best for multiple calls (by myself and my playing companions) to be made as they are more likely to be heard against the wind than a single shout.

Yes that’s just good etiquette.
In the US Open the conditions were perfect no wind and limited crowds.
So no excuses for not shouting for me.
I belive most ams do shout but the pros don’t some do .
but some don’t even watch the ball at all they have picked the tee up and are walking away before the ball has even landed ( BDC) is the worst.

 

[clubchamp98]

Who do you think will have written that disclaimer?

Lots of spectators have been hit by a ball at a tournament. So there has been plenty of opportunity to test the disclaimer.

Not if someone offers you a large out of court settlement they won’t!
Not all things written by Lawyers are watertight.

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

Obviously not a lawyer, but I feel like that disclaimer would not hold up well where a players lack of fore shout has increased the risk of injury.

It’s reasonable to expect a risk of being hit by a ball when visiting a golf course, but if someone’s actions (ie. no shout) increase that risk (or they take no reasonable steps to decrease it) then i would like to imagine you would have a right to challenge it.

 

[Slab]

Obviously not a lawyer, but I feel like that disclaimer would not hold up well where a players lack of fore shout has increased the risk of injury.

It’s reasonable to expect a risk of being hit by a ball when visiting a golf course, but if someone’s actions (ie. no shout) increase that risk (or they take no reasonable steps to decrease it) then i would like to imagine you would have a right to challenge it.

That bit's kinda interesting to think about though

How would they prove that the risk was increased/decreased either with/without a shout? Is it measurable sufficient for a court matter?
Could it be argued that it is just as likely that in reacting to a shout the strike & injury could be more severe than would've been sustained where the person was originally positioned?
So does a shout in itself reduce risk (as can be measured) which I guess is how it might be argued

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

That bit's kinda interesting to think about though

How would they prove that the risk was increased/decreased either with/without a shout? Is it measurable sufficient for a court matter?
Could it be argued that it is just as likely that in reacting to a shout the strike & injury could be more severe than would've been sustained where the person was originally positioned?
So does a shout in itself reduce risk (as can be measured) which I guess is how it might be argued

And now you can see why I am not a lawyer ??

 

[r0wly86]

In Tort it is called volenti non fit injura which means you cannot bring an action if you have agreed to the risks. i.e. you cannot take part in a boxing match and then sue the opponent for hitting you. However volenti is only applicable to reasonable risks, the fact some risk is involved doesn't mean you have agreed to all risks.

for iinstance if playing a cricket match and the batsman turns around and swing the bat at your head no where near the ball, that is not reasonably forseeable and so volenti does not apply. I was studying tort when Koepka hit a spectator at the Ryder cup, we discussed it and the lecturer was pretty adamant that volenti would not apply in this case, and the course management would be liable.

As for the Ts and Cs for the BMW Championship seems to be trying to be a disclaimer, there will be a couple of issues here, disclaimers have to be very visible, and Wentworth should be drawing people's attention to it, hiding it in Ts and Cs would bot go down well in court. Secondly Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 states that you cannot exclude liability for death or personal injury. Having a disclaimer is meaningless if personal injury or death is caused by negligence.

Then we get into what negligence is.

There needs to be a duty of care, a breach of that duty of care, and loss or damage sustained by that breach.

I would think if the organisers, who set up where galleries stand don't do enough to protect them or warn them when a ball is coming towards them, will have committed a tort of negligence

 

[Orikoru]

I shout fore left or right. But I have to admit, when I hear the shouts myself, I'm never able to make out if left or right means it's coming at me or someone on the other side of the hole

Tell me about it, I spend more time trying to get my bearings and getting my compass out than just ducking.

 

[clubchamp98]

In Tort it is called volenti non fit injura which means you cannot bring an action if you have agreed to the risks. i.e. you cannot take part in a boxing match and then sue the opponent for hitting you. However volenti is only applicable to reasonable risks, the fact some risk is involved doesn't mean you have agreed to all risks.

for iinstance if playing a cricket match and the batsman turns around and swing the bat at your head no where near the ball, that is not reasonably forseeable and so volenti does not apply. I was studying tort when Koepka hit a spectator at the Ryder cup, we discussed it and the lecturer was pretty adamant that volenti would not apply in this case, and the course management would be liable.

As for the Ts and Cs for the BMW Championship seems to be trying to be a disclaimer, there will be a couple of issues here, disclaimers have to be very visible, and Wentworth should be drawing people's attention to it, hiding it in Ts and Cs would bot go down well in court. Secondly Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 states that you cannot exclude liability for death or personal injury. Having a disclaimer is meaningless if personal injury or death is caused by negligence.

Then we get into what negligence is.

There needs to be a duty of care, a breach of that duty of care, and loss or damage sustained by that breach.

I would think if the organisers, who set up where galleries stand don't do enough to protect them or warn them when a ball is coming towards them, will have committed a tort of negligence

Good post thank you.