Help save Beckenham Place Park golf course

[delc]

I've signed the petition. It's not in my area, but there are far too many Local Council courses being closed for housing developments. Not everybody can afford to join private clubs! I am now a member of a private club, but like many started playing golf at a muni course many years ago.

 

[Foxholer]

This is all well and good in general, but where are your facts & figures to substantiate your views, opinions & observations? How many kids/juniors play at Beckenham in contrast to the figures put forward by the council, what is your assessment of how many golfers overall play p/day as a true average?

This is coming across as a bit of a personal crusade rather than a practical objection to something that is in your opinion being used to its fullest and is a worthy addition to the community but being closed down, you need to present your facts & figures by comparison not what you believe or think the course should be doing and what the community is losing out on in an ideal scenario or what it as done in past but for various reasons, is no longer doing so! The council is and has obviously looked well into it and if its not cost effective any more, then its dead, no more, not viable!

I'm not sure how long you've had the petition going, but with only 244 signatures on it and asking for more from forum members to which some will no doubt sign it for the wrong reasons, it would seem that your local support is somewhat on the thin side, no doubt hence the decision by the council!

But that's the 'long game' approach that Councils (everywhere) take! Identify a facility that they own that serves the particular purpose os a policy - in this case, additional housing. Let it run down over time in such a way that fewer and fewer local people use the facility.Then justify the 'change of use' by the reduction in use of the facility - that their action has directly caused! As for 'consultation'...that's a word that Councils would sooner didn't exist! Or was simply a synonym for 'notification'!

 

[Rumpokid]

Is this course run by the council, or by a management company on there behalf..i.e. Glendale?..Will sign your petition by the way.

 

[CaroleHope4]

OK here is my thruppence worth. My name is Carole, I do not play golf, I do use Beckenham Place Park on a daily basis to walk my dog and I know several people who play the golf course regularly i.e. weekly. I have signed the petition and am actively promoting it. I have been in lengthy email correspondence with Gavin Plaskitt, Lewisham Council, the driver of this scheme, for several months. So, let's start with some facts 1) Lewisham Council own the park and golf course but subcontract the maintenance out to Glendale. 2) The petition is designed to make Lewisham Council accountable to local residents (both Lewisham and Bromley because the park is right on the boundary) about its plans for the park. This is as much an issue of democracy as golf and so the location of those that sign the petition is an irrelevance. 3) Lewisham Council have secured a £4.9 million pound Heritage Lottery Grant to upgrade the park - this grant does not specify that the golf course should be closed. 4) There is an equivalent area in the rest of the park to that of the golf course for other users. 5) Lewisham Council have decided - and repeat the mantra over and over so that it must be true surely? - that more people would use the park if the golf course is closed and the lottery money used to re-landscape it. One of the new landscape features will be a large lake - no maintenance costs/issues there then?! 6) In order to justify supposed current lack of useage, both by golfers and others, Lewisham Council apparently set up cameras at every entrance to the park (there are nine) for 2 days in August 2013 to record footfall. These cameras apparently recorded between the times of 10am and 4pm (this is stated in an email to me from Gavin Plaskitt), thus failing to record early morning walkers, joggers, cyclists, golfers etc and ditto for late afternoon, added to which late afternoon/early evening in August there could have been family groups entering the park who would not be recorded. Plus, how do the cameras accurately record how many people there are in each car that access the two car parks? 7) As jpjeffery has pointed out, Lewisham Council did not count all rounds of golf paid for and I have no idea over what period they counted because they do not say. 8) Lewisham Council have deliberately played down the good public transport links to the park in order to justify a bigger car park - and, funnily enough - the only (apparent) room for a new car park is on part of the existing golf course. 9) As an aside, Oddsocks, Google maps says Godstone is 38 minutes drive in good traffic conditions - from Beckenham Place Park. People do not live in Beckenham Place Park, they travel from elsewhere, so that will add to the drive time if they are starting out from, for example, Lee SE12 where my brother's Saturday golfing partner at Beckenham Place Park lives. I do not propose to say much more. I think jpjeffery and Foxholer have summarised the position in a nutshell. Consider this, Beckenham Place Park was once the busiest public golf course in the country, maybe even Europe (depending on what source you read.) Had Lewisham Council ploughed all green fees back into maintenance that may well still be the case. They did not. They deliberately run it down long before handing over to Glendale; they want to close the golf course and have been devious and disingenuous in the consulting (ha, ha!) process and data gathering process. They have decided on their narrative and are going hell for leather to fulfil it no matter what. There are now 399 signatures.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Signed. Having been born & brought up nearby in Petts Wood and working in Catford, I used Beckenham Place Park a lot; it's a good layout and used to be in fantastic condition, the greens particularly. It also used to have a really good pro shop run by Bill Woodman. I really enjoyed it as did plenty of others; the queue for a weekend tee time used to start at about 2 in the morning. It wouldn't surprise me if the council had run it down as it is prime real estate.

As for the other courses nearby, I'd dispute the suggested driving times to a lot of those courses as one who used to do a number of them. I'd certainly say that unless something has drastically changed since I vowed never to return to them, golf in the area would be done a better service if Cray Valley & Ruxley were closed down and Beckenham Place Park left open.

I'd also love to know where the second golf course is at High Elms

 

[jpjeffery]

Is this course run by the council, or by a management company on there behalf..i.e. Glendale?..Will sign your petition by the way.

It's run by Glendale. Who, I understand, have done a very good job at other courses such as Kingston, but then I guess they're just doing as they're told by their employer (Lewisham Council).

 

[Rumpokid]

It's run by Glendale. Who, I understand, have done a very good job at other courses such as Kingston, but then I guess they're just doing as they're told by their employer (Lewisham Council).

I have a lot of experience with how Glendale operate.They took over the running from the council of a course i know about 6 years ago.
Council are not their employer.They will have leased the running of the golf course (and operations), for a period of time.In my experience it is a 20/25 year lease.One of the two, at the course i know.
Here is a few points from my experience with regard to Glendale, and how they work:

1.They run the course i know on a shoestring.Only 3 green staff employed.
2 Before they took over, plans were drawn up for a seperate club house for club members.When they took over, they renaged on this, and gave the club use of an area about 10ft by 6ft, to sign in etc.
3.They made plans to supposedly improve drainage on 4 holes on the course.This involved basically digging up fairways and doing it via landfill, to which i believe Glendale would be paid huge sums by the company wanting to dispose of the material.Luckily, council rejected this idea.
4.They double book tee times at weekends at height of season when club comps are on, to cram as many pay and play customers on as possibe.
5.The pro shop (if you can call it that), is not staffed now.Cards for contract holders have to be swiped at the bar, sometimes by the chef, who also acts as barman, all at once.

I could go on, but do not want to hijack your thread.It is not about Glendale, directly.I would look into it a little more deeper, than just blaming the council, as i said, surely Glendale tied into a long term contract to run your course with the council?
Good luck with it all, signed your petition, and i wish more like minded golfers on here would also.

 

[Rumpokid]

OK here is my thruppence worth. My name is Carole, I do not play golf, I do use Beckenham Place Park on a daily basis to walk my dog and I know several people who play the golf course regularly i.e. weekly. I have signed the petition and am actively promoting it. I have been in lengthy email correspondence with Gavin Plaskitt, Lewisham Council, the driver of this scheme, for several months. So, let's start with some facts 1) Lewisham Council own the park and golf course but subcontract the maintenance out to Glendale. 2) The petition is designed to make Lewisham Council accountable to local residents (both Lewisham and Bromley because the park is right on the boundary) about its plans for the park. This is as much an issue of democracy as golf and so the location of those that sign the petition is an irrelevance. 3) Lewisham Council have secured a £4.9 million pound Heritage Lottery Grant to upgrade the park - this grant does not specify that the golf course should be closed. 4) There is an equivalent area in the rest of the park to that of the golf course for other users. 5) Lewisham Council have decided - and repeat the mantra over and over so that it must be true surely? - that more people would use the park if the golf course is closed and the lottery money used to re-landscape it. One of the new landscape features will be a large lake - no maintenance costs/issues there then?! 6) In order to justify supposed current lack of useage, both by golfers and others, Lewisham Council apparently set up cameras at every entrance to the park (there are nine) for 2 days in August 2013 to record footfall. These cameras apparently recorded between the times of 10am and 4pm (this is stated in an email to me from Gavin Plaskitt), thus failing to record early morning walkers, joggers, cyclists, golfers etc and ditto for late afternoon, added to which late afternoon/early evening in August there could have been family groups entering the park who would not be recorded. Plus, how do the cameras accurately record how many people there are in each car that access the two car parks? 7) As jpjeffery has pointed out, Lewisham Council did not count all rounds of golf paid for and I have no idea over what period they counted because they do not say. 8) Lewisham Council have deliberately played down the good public transport links to the park in order to justify a bigger car park - and, funnily enough - the only (apparent) room for a new car park is on part of the existing golf course. 9) As an aside, Oddsocks, Google maps says Godstone is 38 minutes drive in good traffic conditions - from Beckenham Place Park. People do not live in Beckenham Place Park, they travel from elsewhere, so that will add to the drive time if they are starting out from, for example, Lee SE12 where my brother's Saturday golfing partner at Beckenham Place Park lives. I do not propose to say much more. I think jpjeffery and Foxholer have summarised the position in a nutshell. Consider this, Beckenham Place Park was once the busiest public golf course in the country, maybe even Europe (depending on what source you read.) Had Lewisham Council ploughed all green fees back into maintenance that may well still be the case. They did not. They deliberately run it down long before handing over to Glendale; they want to close the golf course and have been devious and disingenuous in the consulting (ha, ha!) process and data gathering process. They have decided on their narrative and are going hell for leather to fulfil it no matter what. There are now 399 signatures.

Great post Carole, good luck with your fight.

 

[jpjeffery]

I have a lot of experience with how Glendale operate.They took over the running from the council of a course i know about 6 years ago.
Council are not their employer.They will have leased the running of the golf course (and operations), for a period of time.In my experience it is a 20/25 year lease.One of the two, at the course i know.
Here is a few points from my experience with regard to Glendale, and how they work:

1.They run the course i know on a shoestring.Only 3 green staff employed.
2 Before they took over, plans were drawn up for a seperate club house for club members.When they took over, they renaged on this, and gave the club use of an area about 10ft by 6ft, to sign in etc.
3.They made plans to supposedly improve drainage on 4 holes on the course.This involved basically digging up fairways and doing it via landfill, to which i believe Glendale would be paid huge sums by the company wanting to dispose of the material.Luckily, council rejected this idea.
4.They double book tee times at weekends at height of season when club comps are on, to cram as many pay and play customers on as possibe.
5.The pro shop (if you can call it that), is not staffed now.Cards for contract holders have to be swiped at the bar, sometimes by the chef, who also acts as barman, all at once.

I could go on, but do not want to hijack your thread.It is not about Glendale, directly.I would look into it a little more deeper, than just blaming the council, as i said, surely Glendale tied into a long term contract to run your course with the council?
Good luck with it all, signed your petition, and i wish more like minded golfers on here would also.

The conjecture (I think it's conjecture, maybe it's reality!) is that Lewisham have offered Glendale a lucrative contract to maintain the park after course closure...with the result that Glendale won't (don't?) try very hard to maintain, improve, or promote the course.

As for how they're running things now, they don't seem to pay much attention to tee time bookings, have failed to block book tee times on at least one of our club competition days, don't answer the phone because they say it's not working after they moved out of the pro shop in to the café (well get it fixed then!), and have a wholly misleading photo for the bar on the website (I'm told the photo is actually of the bar at Kingston GC - it's certainly a lot nicer than the tired looking and dingy café at Beckenham).

 

[Rumpokid]

The conjecture (I think it's conjecture, maybe it's reality!) is that Lewisham have offered Glendale a lucrative contract to maintain the park after course closure...with the result that Glendale won't (don't?) try very hard to maintain, improve, or promote the course.

As for how they're running things now, they don't seem to pay much attention to tee time bookings, have failed to block book tee times on at least one of our club competition days, don't answer the phone because they say it's not working after they moved out of the pro shop in to the café (well get it fixed then!), and have a wholly misleading photo for the bar on the website (I'm told the photo is actually of the bar at Kingston GC - it's certainly a lot nicer than the tired looking and dingy café at Beckenham).

Not sure what you mean here..Glendale are a golf course management company, when you say closure, do you mean when the council officially hand it over..?? Thought Glendale want to manage courses (if you can call it that), not close them....For what it is worth, the course i speak of was better run when under council stewardship, and has gone down hill since Glendale took over..
By the way, dress code is zero here, so you can roll up in Bermuda's and flip flops, if that is what you desire to wear...The pound is king in their eyes..Bunch of penny pinchers, who have no affinity for the good of the game.

 

[CaroleHope4]

Not sure what you mean here..Glendale are a golf course management company, when you say closure, do you mean when the council officially hand it over..?? Thought Glendale want to manage courses (if you can call it that), not close them....For what it is worth, the course i speak of was better run when under council stewardship, and has gone down hill since Glendale took over..
By the way, dress code is zero here, so you can roll up in Bermuda's and flip flops, if that is what you desire to wear...The pound is king in their eyes..Bunch of penny pinchers, who have no affinity for the good of the game.

I do not know what the exact relationship between Lewisham Council and Glendale is but the fact of the matter is that Lewisham Council want to close the golf course, relandscape it (loadsamoney I suspect for consultants and landscapers) and sit back and hope (apparently) that more people will use the whole park as a result. I have no idea who will maintain the park once this happens, although I suspect it will be Glendale, and I can only surmise what the situation will be in, say, 5 years time, but I can have a good guess. My money is on at least one development of houses, along the boundary of the park with Beckenham Hill Road. Glendale's apparent sharp practices suits Lewisham Council's agenda to a tee!

 

[Foxholer]

I do not know what the exact relationship between Lewisham Council and Glendale is but the fact of the matter is that Lewisham Council want to close the golf course, relandscape it (loadsamoney I suspect for consultants and landscapers) and sit back and hope (apparently) that more people will use the whole park as a result. I have no idea who will maintain the park once this happens, although I suspect it will be Glendale, and I can only surmise what the situation will be in, say, 5 years time, but I can have a good guess. My money is on at least one development of houses, along the boundary of the park with Beckenham Hill Road. Glendale's apparent sharp practices suits Lewisham Council's agenda to a tee!

Glendale are actually a facilities/Estates management company with particular emphasis on Golf Courses. I wouldn't accuse Glendale of sharp practices on that basis alone! I thought I recognised their name though; they manage Tilgate Forest and Richmond Park courses too, along with several non golf facilities.

 

[jpjeffery]

Not sure what you mean here..Glendale are a golf course management company, when you say closure, do you mean when the council officially hand it over..?? Thought Glendale want to manage courses (if you can call it that), not close them....For what it is worth, the course i speak of was better run when under council stewardship, and has gone down hill since Glendale took over..
By the way, dress code is zero here, so you can roll up in Bermuda's and flip flops, if that is what you desire to wear...The pound is king in their eyes..Bunch of penny pinchers, who have no affinity for the good of the game.

As others have pretty much said, Glendale might be publicly known (at least to you and me and other golfers) as a golf course management company, they do more open space management besides.

 

[jpjeffery]

http://www.glendale-services.co.uk/

 

[jpjeffery]

Just a quick update on the e-petition signatures count; it's now at 1,166.

And yes, I freely admit this is a shameless *bump* to re-publicise the campaign!

 

[jpjeffery]

Come on folks, if Sir Nick Faldo is on our side...


http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/lewisham/11843752.Protest_over_Lewisham_Council_plans_to_axe_inner_London_s_only_public_golf_course/

 

[Dan2501]

Signed! :thup:

 

[jpjeffery]

Signed! :thup:

Fanks, man!

 

[Dando]

I played BPGC on Sunday. I teed off at 7.15am on a glorious sunny morning. the course was in decent condition and some work had been done on the boxes since my last visit in October. however rakes in the bunkers would have been nice and 2 greens were missing their flags!!!!
I cannot fathom out how on earth LBL can say with a straight face that the course isn't used that much, as whilst drinking a coffee after my round there were about 15 -20 golfers waiting to tee off and the course was packed with 4 balls.
I love this place as I had my 1 and only 20 minute lesson here and it was the course played my first 18 holes on.

 

[jpjeffery]

I played BPGC on Sunday. I teed off at 7.15am on a glorious sunny morning. the course was in decent condition and some work had been done on the boxes since my last visit in October. however rakes in the bunkers would have been nice and 2 greens were missing their flags!!!!
I cannot fathom out how on earth LBL can say with a straight face that the course isn't used that much, as whilst drinking a coffee after my round there were about 15 -20 golfers waiting to tee off and the course was packed with 4 balls.
I love this place as I had my 1 and only 20 minute lesson here and it was the course played my first 18 holes on.

This Sunday we (Braeside Golf Club) are hosting a 'Keep The Beckenham 18 Open', come on down, Dando!