Have a go at this scenario

[chrisd]

Have a go at this before you look it up!


2 players in a stroke play hit their balls into the same shallow water hazard. They both need to play, under penalty, and the balls are collected. Both end up mistakenly with their partners ball, and drop and play to the green with that ball - what if any penalties apply and to whom?

 

[Crow]

You can substitute a ball if it's gone into a water hazard so no penatly for palying the wrong ball, just not sure if you need to declare the fact you've substituted to your playing partner?

 

[williamalex1]

maybe both would be dq [as they didn't replay with correct ball-] for changing balls during play of a hole without telling your opponents the reason [ damage maybe ] experts will tell us

 

[pbrown7582]

i would say no penaltys necessary carry as you were....

 

[chrisd]

Two out of three right is pretty good. You can substitute a ball from a hazard so, any ball dropped under penalty can be a substituted ball and, therefore, it doesn't matter that each player plays his playing partners ball

No one at my club or golf range that I have asked has got near the right answer so well done Crow and Pbrown

 

[Colin L]

maybe both would be dq [as they didn't replay with correct ball-] for changing balls during play of a hole without telling your opponents the reason [ damage maybe ] experts will tell us

Just to expand on this a bit. Chris has confirmed that they were allowed to substitute but you refer to changing a ball because it was damaged without telling your opponent. That shouldn't happen as you are obliged to inform your opponent of your intention to lift the ball to check it for damage and give him/her the opportunity to see the damage. If you didn't inform your opponent before lifting, you would incur a penalty stroke. If your opponent does not agree it is unfit for play you can substitute another ball and your opponent can make a claim. If the claim were upheld by the committee you would lose that hole and have to recalculate the outcome of the match.

 

[duncan mackie]

You can substitute a ball from a hazard so, any ball dropped under penalty can be a substituted ball ......

nope - do you want to try and find the exception to this statement

 

[JustOne]

Two out of three right is pretty good. You can substitute a ball from a hazard so, any ball dropped under penalty can be a substituted ball and, therefore, it doesn't matter that each player plays his playing partners ball

Isn't part of the process being able to identify your ball when it's in play? If neither player noticed wouldn't that technically put them both in the wrong?..erm, if found out

 

[chrisd]

nope - do you want to try and find the exception to this statement

If the players were playing different balls and the competition was run under the a rule requiring a competitor to play with the same type and model of ball through the competition?

 

[duncan mackie]

If the players were playing different balls and the competition was run under the a rule requiring a competitor to play with the same type and model of ball through the competition?

Chris, whilst that would constitute a situation where the players in the question you posed would be subject to penalties I wasn't going there!

You wrote "You can substitute a ball from a hazard so, any ball dropped under penalty can be a substituted ball ......" and I'm suggesting that whilst this is generally true there would be a situation within the rules where it might not apply ie nothing to do with the original situation - just your choice of words here.

 

[chrisd]

Chris, whilst that would constitute a situation where the players in the question you posed would be subject to penalties I wasn't going there!

You wrote "You can substitute a ball from a hazard so, any ball dropped under penalty can be a substituted ball ......" and I'm suggesting that whilst this is generally true there would be a situation within the rules where it might not apply ie nothing to do with the original situation - just your choice of words here.

It wasn't written verbatim Duncan as I couldn't find the decision when I wanted it but recalled as best as I could

 

[duncan mackie]

It wasn't written verbatim Duncan as I couldn't find the decision when I wanted it but recalled as best as I could

wish I hadn't tried to emulate your post with a question now!

the exception to "You can substitute a ball from a hazard so, any ball dropped under penalty can be a substituted ball ......" would be a player dropping a ball outside the bunker (hazard) from casual water in a bunker under rule 25-1 b (ii) (b) if his ball was immediately recoverable - despite the drop being under penalty.

so, to bring this back to the original scenario, if 2 players put their balls into the same flooded bunker, recovered the balls but swapped them, then played etc, they would be playing wrongly substituted balls (15-2) and be subject to further penalty.

 

[williamalex1]

do you not have to tell your fellow players BEFORE you are change your ball for whatever reason. surely you cant tee off with one ball then arrive on the green with a different one , then say sorry i forgot to tell you i changed it earlier

 

[Colin L]

do you not have to tell your fellow players BEFORE you are change your ball for whatever reason. surely you cant tee off with one ball then arrive on the green with a different one , then say sorry i forgot to tell you i changed it earlier

Not necessarily. Here are 3 ways in which you might finish a hole with a different ball from the one you started:

a) if you have substituted another ball where the Rules allow it (eg when you have lost a ball) which may involve a penalty;
b) if you have substituted a ball where the Rules don't allow it - which will involve a penalty;
b) if your ball is sufficiently damaged to be unfit for play - which I covered above and does not incur a penalty if the correct procedure is followed.

An example of a) is that you can fish your ball out of a water hazard and substitute another without telling your opponent/fellow competitor. It is a courtesy to do so but not an obligation. You obviously have to let him know you have incurred a penalty but not that you have changed balls.

Regarding b), you could equally substitute another ball without saying so. Again you have to be sure you say you have incurred a penalty (that is if you realise or are told you have done something wrong) but the penalty is for the wrong substitution, not for failing to tell your opponent/fellow competitors at the time that you changed balls.

c) is rather different in that your opponent/fellow competitor has to be told why you are going to lift your ball and be given the opportunity to see the possibly damaged ball so in that case will know if you changed your ball or not.

 

[duncan mackie]

do you not have to tell your fellow players BEFORE you are change your ball for whatever reason. surely you cant tee off with one ball then arrive on the green with a different one , then say sorry i forgot to tell you i changed it earlier

under what rule?

 

[chrisd]

wish I hadn't tried to emulate your post with a question now!

the exception to "You can substitute a ball from a hazard so, any ball dropped under penalty can be a substituted ball ......" would be a player dropping a ball outside the bunker (hazard) from casual water in a bunker under rule 25-1 b (ii) (b) if his ball was immediately recoverable - despite the drop being under penalty.

so, to bring this back to the original scenario, if 2 players put their balls into the same flooded bunker, recovered the balls but swapped them, then played etc, they would be playing wrongly substituted balls (15-2) and be subject to further penalty.

I am always willing to learn Duncan, thanks for the subsequent question

 

[williamalex1]

under what rule?[/QUOTEi never said there was a rule i was only asking questions.up for debate .but i would not be pleased if one of my fellow players changed a ball without telling someone when and why. the players picked out what ball they deemed was theirs . then said its not , so they could have played wrong balls in previous shot into hazzard

 

[duncan mackie]

under what rule?[/QUOTEi never said there was a rule i was only asking questions.up for debate .but i would not be pleased if one of my fellow players changed a ball without telling someone when and why. the players picked out what ball they deemed was theirs . then said its not , so they could have played wrong balls in previous shot into hazzard

there are times they will have to, and there are times they aren't allowed to, but at the end of the day the requirement is that they comply with the rules in each case.

if you take your last premise, "they could have played wrong balls in previous shot into hazzard " what do you do when your fellow competitor loses his second shot from the rough......he could have been playing a wrong ball and his original might still be lying lost in the rough.

 

[williamalex1]

there are times they will have to, and there are times they aren't allowed to, but at the end of the day the requirement is that they comply with the rules in each case.

if you take your last premise, "they could have played wrong balls in previous shot into hazzard " what do you do when your fellow competitor loses his second shot from the rough......he could have been playing a wrong ball and his original might still be lying lost in the rough.

thats my point he identified that it was his ball. but he did not say he sub it

 

[duncan mackie]

thats my point he identified that it was his ball. but he did not say he sub it

we are going round in circles

from a rules perspective there are times you are required to advise a FC or opponent of things, and there are others where you are not.

in most cases you will either finish the hole with the one you started it with or you will have had to substitute; where you might substitute, or rather where you have the opportunity to continue with the original ball but are also permitted to substitute there is no requirement to say anything at all. Examples (not exhaustive list) are finding your original ball in a water hazard before continuing to play and playing it a short distance OOB and recovering it before playing your next shot from where you played your last. You cannot just swap out your ball other than such situations, for example once you have got to the green, nor decide on your own that your ball is unfit for play and requires substitution.