rulie
Head Pro
Sounds like an over-zealous handicapping authority! Is that really within their jurisdiction?
Handicap rule help please
- Thread starter bladeplayer
- Start date
rulefan
Tour Winner
Oops. I should have said
That certainly is NOT in the book. Even in the variations for Ireland.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
I have no idea Rulie .. it was popular with clubs some were pushing for it to b 5/6 comps
rulefan
Tour Winner
Unless it is in the CONGU Regulations, no authority (club, county, area, country) has the authority to change the regulation re handicap status. And I can't find anything.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Not changing ur handicap status as such . U can still play in ur own club . They somehow changed the criteria for playing in open comps
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
Every open I play in simply requires the appropriate (competition) handicap.
rulefan
Tour Winner
It is the Club's decision.
It is not within GUI's authority, unless GUI are the organising committee.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Very interesting . Thanks again for all the replys tho this all questions asked
clog
Newbie
It is : Congu Rule 25.3 (Union or affiliated club)
A bit late to this but the criteria in Ireland regarding 'c' status is different. There are much more open competitions here than in the UK and entry will require a c status handicap. This can be checked immediately on the CDH.
It was decided a few years ago in order to ensure fair handicapping that 3 qualifying scores per year are needed.
See attached:
https://www.golfnet.ie/sites/Conten.../Leinster-GUI/Links/FAQs LG 18 March 2016.pdf
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Welcome to the forum.
Whilst I understand the Irish open element, as already presented, you have posted a link to a club's faq on a specific document - linked in the faq.
Unfortunately the faq and the document differ in respect of this aspect. Section 25.1 no longer references 'at his home club's as quoted in the faq.
Which is what prompted some of the contribution.
It's entirely up to clubs organising their competitions to have conditions of entry, but the designation of a competition handicap is per the reference in the CONGU manual...
rulefan
Tour Winner
2016 -2018
25.3 A Union or Affiliated Club may direct the status of handicap that is acceptable for entry into competitions where a CONGU® Handicap is required
2018 Updated
25.2 A Union or Affiliated Club may direct the status of handicap that is acceptable for entry into competitions where a CONGU® Handicap is required.
This means that the Organising Committee of the particular competition determines who may play.
Apart from a few exceptions (notably Area Authorities), only Unions or Affiliated Clubs can run qualifying competitions. A Union can not set competition conditions for clubs.
I am not convinced that the FAQ is entirely accurate.
Q. In Ireland, what is the status of “c†symbol?
A. In Ireland “c†is being used to identify the minimum number of Qualifying Competitions at the HomeClub in the previous 12 month period. This satisfies eligibility to play in ‘Away’ Open SinglesCompetitions.
The GUI simply say:Competition Handicap ‘c’ Status (Clause 25)
- This merely indicates if a player has returned 3 Qualifying Scores in the preceding or current year and hasbeen in use in England, Scotland and Wales for a number of years
- The ‘c’ status may be required for entry to competitions in these countries (always check the Conditionsof Competition)
Affiliated Clubs may wish to include the ‘c’ handicap status annotation in their conditions of competition either fortheir home competitions or open competitions at their club or both.
25.3 A Union or Affiliated Club may direct the status of handicap that is acceptable for entry into competitions where a CONGU® Handicap is required
2018 Updated
25.2 A Union or Affiliated Club may direct the status of handicap that is acceptable for entry into competitions where a CONGU® Handicap is required.
This means that the Organising Committee of the particular competition determines who may play.
Apart from a few exceptions (notably Area Authorities), only Unions or Affiliated Clubs can run qualifying competitions. A Union can not set competition conditions for clubs.
I am not convinced that the FAQ is entirely accurate.
Q. In Ireland, what is the status of “c†symbol?
A. In Ireland “c†is being used to identify the minimum number of Qualifying Competitions at the HomeClub in the previous 12 month period. This satisfies eligibility to play in ‘Away’ Open SinglesCompetitions.
The GUI simply say:Competition Handicap ‘c’ Status (Clause 25)
- This merely indicates if a player has returned 3 Qualifying Scores in the preceding or current year and hasbeen in use in England, Scotland and Wales for a number of years
- The ‘c’ status may be required for entry to competitions in these countries (always check the Conditionsof Competition)
Affiliated Clubs may wish to include the ‘c’ handicap status annotation in their conditions of competition either fortheir home competitions or open competitions at their club or both.
clog
Newbie
Hi, The FAQ provided was from Leinster Golf which is the provincial branch of the Golfing union of Ireland. (similar to county, area etc).
The decision regarding 'c' status and how it applies to open competitions in Ireland was changed a few years ago (2015). The union and clubs adopted this as conditions for entry to their open competitions. Please see
https://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/gui-open-rule-passed-30025748.html
The decision regarding 'c' status and how it applies to open competitions in Ireland was changed a few years ago (2015). The union and clubs adopted this as conditions for entry to their open competitions. Please see
https://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/gui-open-rule-passed-30025748.html
rulefan
Tour Winner
GUI - "A further fundamental basis of the UHS (Unified Handicapping System) is that every player will return a sufficient number of qualifying scores to provide reasonable evidence of current ability.
"Thus, by returning a minimum of three qualifying scores at his home club, annually, the player's handicap committee and peer information will better contribute to keeping the player's handicap under review leading to a more equitable handicapping system."
I wonder why it is thought qualifying scores at a home club have any more value than at an away club.
Also, given that this was introduced in 2014, why have GUI not yet persuaded any of the other home unions, including the ILGU, that is a good idea fo CONGU to adopt.
"Thus, by returning a minimum of three qualifying scores at his home club, annually, the player's handicap committee and peer information will better contribute to keeping the player's handicap under review leading to a more equitable handicapping system."
I wonder why it is thought qualifying scores at a home club have any more value than at an away club.
Also, given that this was introduced in 2014, why have GUI not yet persuaded any of the other home unions, including the ILGU, that is a good idea fo CONGU to adopt.
clog
Newbie
The thinking was at the time to provide a baseline and have some peer review. Away players in open competitions have their CSS calculated differently. (Congu Appendix B (3). It could be said that this skewed their handicap.
The rule though is a perceived solution to a problem that is particular to golf in Ireland where the cost of playing in an open competition can be a fraction of a normal green fee. This resulted in the thought, weather real or perceived that people were taking advantage and joining small rural clubs quite a distance away at which they never play in order to avail of cheaper golf near home. This was thought to be impacting member numbers. The original poster was actually reasonably correct in a post much earlier.
The rule though is a perceived solution to a problem that is particular to golf in Ireland where the cost of playing in an open competition can be a fraction of a normal green fee. This resulted in the thought, weather real or perceived that people were taking advantage and joining small rural clubs quite a distance away at which they never play in order to avail of cheaper golf near home. This was thought to be impacting member numbers. The original poster was actually reasonably correct in a post much earlier.
Thanks for replys i remember discussing it a few yrs ago . . Maybe it never came to pass . We had a few clubs over here offering cheap distance memberships €150_€180.. it took off in a big way but was harming alot of clubs membership figures . There was talk of bringing in rule of having to submit 3 comp cards from ur home club to maintain ur c handicap status . Maybe discussion was as far as it got
Thanks to all for taking time to reply
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?96743-Handicap-rule-help-please#HWu878sVgwPafyfK.99
Thanks to all for taking time to reply
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?96743-Handicap-rule-help-please#HWu878sVgwPafyfK.99
HughJars
Q-School Graduate
I don't follow, if clubs were offering cheap "country" membership, but folk were still members of their local club, how was this harming the local club? Surely it's doubling up on members rather than the opposite?
edit: Followed the whole discussion now. Doesn't change anything though, nobody can force you to join the nearest club and make that your "home" club. "Home club" is the club where your handicap is registered, even if that's arse end of the country.
Last edited:
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Even that article, and the relevant quotes, have the potential to be missleading in another aspect. CONGU references qualifying scores, the article references playing in competitions. You can maintain a "c" without playing in any competitions by returning supplementary cards which are qualifying scores.
These changes were all announced in June 2015, for implementation from 1.1.2016 and covered all golf unions. Relevant section of the announcement...
"Competition Status
a. Re-allocation of ‘c’ status handicap will require scorecards for 54 holes, in any
permutation of 9 and 18-hole scores.
b. All Unions/Associations to use ‘c’ Competition Handicap Status from 1 Jan 2016.
c. Reactivation of ‘c’ status Handicap after handicap lost – if a player with a ‘c’
Competition Handicap leaves club membership but re-joins within a period of 12
months his handicap will be re-instated as ‘c’.
11. Supplementary Scores
a. May be returned at all GB&I clubs of which a player is a member."
As I posted originally, it would appear that GUI implemented their use of the 'c' handicap requirement for open entry, and the working definition then moved away from that which they originally intended - at which point it's impossible to effectively police ie a player entered an open and has a "c" status handicap on the system; all looks good. But no-one actually knows if they have returned 3 competition singles cards at their home club!
clog
Newbie
The CDH system here has been running for about 20 years and entry to opens is now only by this means. Once a player swipes their card or puts in the CDH number then the status will be pulled up automatically. It can also be checked in seconds on the GUI site.
Yes Duncan you are right a supplementary score from the home club will suffice.
The proprietary software used by clubs (clubsystems etc) has been tailored to accommodate the situation here so it actually does work in practice. It will work out the amount of home qualifiers. Please note though this ruling only applies in regard to opens.
I can certainly see the confusion regarding the situation but from what I understand the only way to carry out the 2015 AGM decision was to shoehorn it in with 'c' status. At that stage the CONGU 2016-2018 decisions had been made and books printed etc.
I do not think this will survive the changes coming in next year though, certainly in its current form.
Yes Duncan you are right a supplementary score from the home club will suffice.
The proprietary software used by clubs (clubsystems etc) has been tailored to accommodate the situation here so it actually does work in practice. It will work out the amount of home qualifiers. Please note though this ruling only applies in regard to opens.
I can certainly see the confusion regarding the situation but from what I understand the only way to carry out the 2015 AGM decision was to shoehorn it in with 'c' status. At that stage the CONGU 2016-2018 decisions had been made and books printed etc.
I do not think this will survive the changes coming in next year though, certainly in its current form.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Hi Clog . Thanks for the input . Where r u a member ?
rulie
Head Pro
Interesting discussion. Does "returning a minimum of three qualifying scores at his home club" mean that he has to play those three rounds at his home club or just "return scores" (report) from any qualifying round to his home club?
clog
Newbie
Yes the scores need to be at the home club to qualify for play in opens at the moment. It is not an ideal system though as a player for example may not be eligible for an open but could represent the club in an inter-club competition. They could not change the nature of the 'c' status as per CONGU rules but they shoehorned in the home qualifiers as a condition of competition for open singles.
I am based south of Dublin and have been involved in club administration here for quite a few years and this rule provokes more queries than nearly any other. Indeed it was one of the committee that told me about this thread.
All singles qualifiers here are through the CDH system and the software will upload scores as soon as the comp is closed. There is no need for players to physically do anything except put scores into the computer or hand in card.
