Forearm "rotation" in the swing

[BRISTOL86]

Hi Guys

Please help a newbie out - I've been struggling with inconsistent contact, and something my instructor said is troubling me.

I take my lessons in a driving range bay with a mirror behind it, and I've been told that when I get to the top of my backswing, I should look into that mirror and see the head of the club pointing straight out at the target line, however when I get to the top of my backswing and look back, it's always looking a bit closed to me, and when I hold that "top of backswing" position, I have to manually add some rotation to get the toe pointing straight "down the line".

My instructor mentioned that there should be some conscious rotation of the forearm during the takeaway/backswing to get this happening. However it feels like when I do this, I'm adding un-neccesary "moving parts" to the swing which makes it even harder to get everything back in the right place consistently.

It's really hard to describe the movement I'm talking about, but basically, assume an address position - the back of your left hand is pointing out towards the target, yes? Now rotate nothing but your hand /wrist/forearm until the back of your left hand is pointing straight out in front of you.

That's the rotation movement that my instructor is suggesting that is added into the swing during the backswing. For me that feels very un-natural and is adding another complication to my swing. Because the shoulder turn adds some rotation also, the back of my hand will actually have rotated again and be pointing skyward if I do this during the backswing.

So should I just not worry that when I look back into that mirror, the club looks a bit closed to me? Or is there some other fault causing this?

Perhaps I'm over thinking....

All help appreciated!

 

[Maninblack4612]

I think you,re right, independent rotation of the forearms is a bad idea. BUT, as the shoulders turn the forearms appear​ to rotate clockwise. If you think they are rotating and counter this movement you finish up with a closed position at the top, with the clubface looking at the sky. I know this because I have done it for years and have only just realised. All my shots had a tendency to go straight left & I put it down to an out to in swing path. All efforts to correct the swing path failed because it was already in to out, the ball going left was due to the closed clubface.

Try swinging half way back without the ball & watch the club face. It should have a constant relationship with your arms, not rotating one way or the other. Doing this with a putter actually makes it easier to see. If you're like me it will feel you are rotating when you're not. The test is how the ball flies. I now have a gentle draw because the clubface is square to the target line & the swing path slightly inside. If your shots go straight left or hook it's an indication that the clubface was closed at impact and counter rotation could be the cause.

Think your pro may be just telling you to rotate to get the right feeling.

 

[BRISTOL86]

Thanks for that, Maninblack.

I've been watching loads of slow motion swings from pros trying to see if they are seeming to add in this additional rotation, and have found no strong evidence that they are, hence my post here!

I think when I first saw my pro, I was not turning well at all, so I think you're right in that she's trying to get me turning more with the shoulders.

FWIW - I put my old Swingyde on an old club and tried making swings where I added in that rotation - the "cup" on the Swingyde was missing my arm every time, which pretty much proved to me that I had the wrong end of the stick, and that I don't need to be adding in any conscious "manual" rotation!

 

[One Planer]

When I was having a block of lessons at the end of last year, my pro noticed I was hooding the club face going back.

You can see that the clubface is hooded when compared to my address spine angle (Toe pointing towards floor). My Pro wanted me to feel like I'm rolling the face open in the back swing. I don't actually roll the face, but have the feeling that I am.

After about a months work, I got it to here:

Much better position with the club almost mirroring my spine angle.

My pro also advocated a Swingyde to help me, but having used his for a time, I found myself in not too bad a position at the top, it was more a case of getting the club face into a better position going back.

 

[BRISTOL86]

Thanks Gareth - I've actually got much better at getting the toe pointed skyward in the takeaway but the club still seems a bit closed at the top of my backswing. I suspect lack of sufficient shoulder turn is the real culprit!

 

[lex!]

I agree with your thought that it's adding a complication, consciously trying to do this, to add rotation. I thought it was the quality of the grip and the backswing (or takeaway) that set the top position. When I started, my pro had to work on my grip, as it was too weak and caused an open club face at the top and a cast to correct this on the way down. I know its bad news for me if I try and actually think about where the club face is in the swing, and I was told to let the sub-conscious take care of this.

 

[nickyj4]

This was my issue as well, I was rotating my forearm as soon as I took the club away from the ball which was causing me to pull the club on an inside line. I started to work on getting the club going much straighter back and getting it much more in line with target when its parallel to the ground, I use the same preshot routine as Rickie Fowler and this definately helps as it lets you see where the clubface is pointing on the way up and encourages you to rotate round the body

 

[London mike 61]

I think that sometimes the fault can be traced back to the grip and how it is formed, if when you have formed your grip, you extend your arms out in front of you , you should have the edge of the club vertical .

If it is open even slightly or closed, then your shot will be pushed right or hooked left.

To form the grip on a club , I have the club at north east ( as you would see it on a compass ) in relation to my body line, then I put my left hand on the club. This is done because when my arms hang naturally in front of me , the club would fit into my hand without me having to contort them in order to grip the club.

Perhaps you might like to try forming your grip this way and it may well lead to a more natural rotation of the forearm and better swing results.

Good luck in finding your natural swing.

 

[RGDave]

There are some people that like to teach a thing I call 90/90.

90 degrees "upward" wrist set and 90 degrees "backward" wrist rotation. (Those are the way I think of it NOT the official language)

You might like to google "Faldo pre set drill" or "Martin Hall wrist action improvement drill" or even watch a variety of videos on Youtube by "Me and my golf".. these guys work at a local course to me.

Essentially, if you get the club face in the right position at 9 o'clock (Your "L") then the turn to the top involves no further manipulation of the clubface/hands.

Obviously, I am neither a Pro nor an expert, but if you read around in the subject, it could help you unlock some ideas.

 

[Foxholer]

I don't believe in adding rotation, however - as in Gareth's case - there is often a tendency to do the opposite, so the feeling of adding rotation is really just staying neutral. I believe that halfway back position is also more important than the top one - unless wildly out - and, of course it's what happens on the downswing and at impact that really matters (though that's often a reflection of the backswing).

As your instructor is the guy that 'knows' you best, it's wise to follow his advice, but I'd suggest you query him about the Swingyde results as that's an excellent tool for indicating relative positions.

 

[the_coach]

As a generalization they should really be no manipulated forearm rotation going back or coming through it's really an optical illusion created by the body turn & arms being connected at the shoulders. (though rotate the forearms is often given, (wrongly in my view) as an aid to giving a feel to real for an issue either going back or coming back through)

Find overtime it often causes far more issues than it cures, roll it overly going back the face will be too open, you have to roll it back coming through then to get back to square, ways too much club face rotation going on that has to be managed & timed exactly to get back to square through impact, far too much extraneous movement that makes it a good ways difficult to anywhere near get good consistent contact & face angle at impact.

Think you already found the answer in your shoulder turn comment.

In that your right shoulder (so chest left shoulder) has to turn, right shoulder rotate behind you while you keep your spine angles in posture.

The arms then just stay connected to that rotation, both the upper left arm & upper right arm (triceps) are lightly connected to the sides (not front) of your chest. As long as you have a good grip & you don't hinge or roll the hands wrists from the get-go in the takeaway but the triangle stay intact, then when the club shaft is first parallel to the ground (PP1) the leading edge will be either vertical so toe up or be parallel to the spine angle, both are perfectly fine as is anything between these 2 positions.

What you don't want is that the face looks up at all at the sky (open) or looks downwards towards he ground (closed) in this shaft horizontal/parallel to ground - also should be parallel to the toe line & the ball/target line here.

If you rest your upper arms on the front part of your chest (instead of the lightly remaining in contact with the sides of your pecs) you will just round & hunch your shoulders, making a good rotated turn around the spine in posture very difficult to achieve properly.

As a possible help to you in this issue have a look at this vid on turn & arm connection you might find it helps you more to achieve what you're looking for.

[video=youtube_share;IhEgrOuLGVQ]http://youtu.be/IhEgrOuLGVQ[/video]

 

[BRISTOL86]

Thanks all for the great advice!

 

[JustOne]

You can see that the clubface is hooded when compared to my address spine angle (Toe pointing towards floor). My Pro wanted me to feel like I'm rolling the face open in the back swing. I don't actually roll the face, but have the feeling that I am.

Your left arm works less IN

On the left pic your left arm works too much inwards causing your right hand to get 'ontop' of the club, hooding the face. In the right pic your left arm works less inwards enabling your arms to naturally be in a better position - as God intended - with no manipulation of the face required. (nb: you can actually see daylight between your left elbow and your torso in the righthand picture)

 

[One Planer]

Thanks for that James.

I was curious as to why. Now I know :thup: