Fallen leaves called abnormal conditions

[oltimer]

anyone ever heard of this - balls on the fairways not found due to muddy conditions or fallen leaves are allowed to drop a ball for free (under rule 16.1) where they expected to find the ball, similar but off the fairway not found are lost balls.

to be fair all comps are temporary non qualifyers just find it odd when a local rule could be to drop another ball under 2 shot pen and are fallen leaves an abnormality.

 

[Jules]

If the leaves have been accumulated by the Greenkeeper for the purpose of removing them, then they are treated as Ground Under Repair, from which free relief is allowed in accordance with R16.1, or alternatively under a model local rule using a drop zone in accordance with 14.3. If they haven’t been accumulated by the green keeper, then they are only loose impediments and free relief is not allowed. If not found amongst loose impediments then lost ball.

 

[jim8flog]

There is an allowable Local Rule

F-14
Accumulations of Loose Impediments
Purpose. At certain times of the year, piles of loose impediments such as leaves, seeds or acorns may make it difficult for a player to find or play his or her ball. A Committee can choose to treat such piles of loose impediments in the general area or in a bunker as ground under repair from which free relief is allowed under Rule 16.1. This Local Rule may not be used for penalty areas as relief is not available for abnormal course conditions in penalty areas. The Local Rule should be limited to the hole(s) where problems are created by such loose impediments and should be withdrawn as soon as conditions allow. Model Local Rule F-14 "During play of the [specify hole number], any ground with temporary accumulations of [identify types of loose impediments] in the general area or in a bunker is treated as ground under repair from which free relief is allowed under Rule 16.1. Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a. "

 

[Swango1980]

anyone ever heard of this - balls on the fairways not found due to muddy conditions or fallen leaves are allowed to drop a ball for free (under rule 16.1) where they expected to find the ball, similar but off the fairway not found are lost balls.

to be fair all comps are temporary non qualifyers just find it odd when a local rule could be to drop another ball under 2 shot pen and are fallen leaves an abnormality.

I'm sure that might lead to some flexible interpretations if the ball was expected to be found near the edge of the fairway / edge of the rough

 

[jim8flog]

I'm sure that might lead to some flexible interpretations if the ball was expected to be found near the edge of the fairway / edge of the rough

I think the primary purpose of such a rule was to cover a ball lost in such conditions back when I first saw it (pre 2019 Rules).

 

[clubchamp98]

If you can’t find it how do you know it’s on the fairway ?
Sounds like the oob stupid rule they tried to implement.

 

[rulie]

Imo, the “oob stupid rule” (which is actually only an authorized Local Rule) works exceptionally well in certain circumstances. Obviously, your opinion is different.

 

[Colin L]

D-S
I've sent you a PM

 

[clubchamp98]

Imo, the “oob stupid rule” (which is actually only an authorized Local Rule) works exceptionally well in certain circumstances. Obviously, your opinion is different.

Yes it is very different.
But your entitled to your opinion.

 

[rulefan]

I think the primary purpose of such a rule was to cover a ball lost in such conditions back when I first saw it (pre 2019 Rules).

It was in fact Decision 33-8/31 prior to 2019 and existed well before that.

If you can’t find it how do you know it’s on the fairway ?
Sounds like the oob stupid rule they tried to implement.

The rider to the rule was: unless it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in the leaves, it must be treated as lost elsewhere.

 

[clubchamp98]

It was in fact Decision 33-8/31 prior to 2019 and existed well before that.


The rider to the rule was: unless it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in the leaves, it must be treated as lost elsewhere.

That’s my issue how can you be virtually certain if you don’t know where it is ?
Your just guessing. You find your ball or you don’t !

 

[rulie]

That’s my issue how can you be virtually certain if you don’t know where it is ?
Your just guessing. You find your ball or you don’t !

Same expectations apply for a ball not found that may be in gur, an obstruction or a penalty area. It is a very high level of proof that is required because of the significant advantage that might be gained.

 

[rulefan]

That’s my issue how can you be virtually certain if you don’t know where it is ?
Your just guessing. You find your ball or you don’t !

Do you apply the same judgement to a ball and a penalty area?

 

[Swango1980]

Do you apply the same judgement to a ball and a penalty area?

I'm guessing the key difference is that, with many penalty areas, if it is not in the penalty area, you will usually be able to find it somewhere just outside the penalty area (not always, but generally). That is often enough to convince a player it is in the PA, if not found. In this case, however, this is not going to be true. You are just as likely not going to find the ball in the rough (probably more likely not going to find it), so you can't say "well, if I can't find it on the rough, I can assume it is on the fairway". Therefore, the certainty of it being on the fairway might be difficult to get, unless you banged it right down the middle / saw it land, etc. Depends how wide the fairways are as well. But, a player could highly expect the ball to be on the fairway, but if they actually hit is down the edge, with a bit of fade/draw, and it got a bounce towards the edge of the rough, then the ball could be surprisingly in the rough. I can imagine a player saying "I am 95% certain it is on the fairway", but what they really mean is "I'm pretty sure it is on the fairway, it was a good shot and it wasn't far enough to go in the rough".

Nothing against the rule btw, I'm sure it needs to be there to serve a purpose in extreme situations. Just saying it is not really comparable to penalty areas, and I can imagine it is more easily open to variable interpretation as the ball gets hit closer to the edges of the fairway rather than the middle of it.

 

[clubchamp98]

Do you apply the same judgement to a ball and a penalty area?

Totally different imo.
A PA is just that it’s a penalty , but it’s the virtually certain bit I don’t like.
There’s a 5% chance you could make the wrong decision in YOUR own favour.
How many golfers will say” oh no I don’t think it was on the fairway, I will drop in the rough under penalty”
Very few would be my guess, leading to some heated debate.

 

[rulefan]

Totally different imo.
A PA is just that it’s a penalty , but it’s the virtually certain bit I don’t like.
There’s a 5% chance you could make the wrong decision in YOUR own favour.
How many golfers will say” oh no I don’t think it was on the fairway, I will drop in the rough under penalty”
Very few would be my guess, leading to some heated debate.

The 95% certain requirement is built in to many rules. eg taking a provisional or playing the provisional being one (or two?). How would you resolve the query 'Is it in the .....? ?

 

[rulefan]

I'm guessing the key difference is that, with many penalty areas, if it is not in the penalty area, you will usually be able to find it somewhere just outside the penalty area (not always, but generally). That is often enough to convince a player it is in the PA, if not found. In this case, however, this is not going to be true. You are just as likely not going to find the ball in the rough (probably more likely not going to find it), so you can't say "well, if I can't find it on the rough, I can assume it is on the fairway". Therefore, the certainty of it being on the fairway might be difficult to get, unless you banged it right down the middle / saw it land, etc. Depends how wide the fairways are as well. But, a player could highly expect the ball to be on the fairway, but if they actually hit is down the edge, with a bit of fade/draw, and it got a bounce towards the edge of the rough, then the ball could be surprisingly in the rough. I can imagine a player saying "I am 95% certain it is on the fairway", but what they really mean is "I'm pretty sure it is on the fairway, it was a good shot and it wasn't far enough to go in the rough".

Nothing against the rule btw, I'm sure it needs to be there to serve a purpose in extreme situations. Just saying it is not really comparable to penalty areas, and I can imagine it is more easily open to variable interpretation as the ball gets hit closer to the edges of the fairway rather than the middle of it.

Wouldn't the same apply to GUR in the middle of the fairway?

 

[clubchamp98]

The 95% certain requirement is built in to many rules. eg taking a provisional or playing the provisional being one (or two?). How would you resolve the query 'Is it in the .....? ?

Well you can’t 100% of the time.
So you see it go in the …..? Or you don’t , for me it’s as simple as that.!

 

[Swango1980]

Wouldn't the same apply to GUR in the middle of the fairway?

Not sure it would? I guess it depends what the GUR is. Presumably, if you are not in the GUR on the fairway (say, casual water), then you would be on the fairway around it? If that was the case, then if you were not in the GUR, you'd expect to find your ball in the fairway? Again, it might be harder to determine if the GUR is next to some high rough, trees.

But, the overall issue with getting relief if you cannot find the ball in leaves on the fairway, is those same conditions will also be present outside the fairway.

 

[rulefan]

Well you can’t 100% of the time.
So you see it go in the …..? Or you don’t , for me it’s as simple as that.!

You drive straight over the brow. Can no longer see the ball. You get over the hill and find a small deep pond in the middles of a pristine, wide fairway. Can't see the ball anywhere.
Back to the tee?