F1 2021

[ColchesterFC]

Re the bold bit...
IYO!
Not according to the Stewards during the Appeal by Mercedes, instead applying an 'overriding' one.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/...nored-to-go-racing-at-the-end-of-abu-dhabi-gp

They're making it up as they go along to protect and justify the decision made. Nowhere in the rules does it say that 48.13 overrides 48.12.

I can't believe that in a sport that is so black and white when it comes to the rules that this incident can possibly be allowed to happen. Mercedes got penalised (correctly IMO) earlier in the season because of a problem with the rear wing being a mm or two out of spec. That's how tight the rules are yet Masi has ignored the rules and protocols purely to create an entertaining end to the season. That's not his job, his job is to apply the rules correctly.

 

[Foxholer]

Don't be coming here with yer facts now!!

I'd bet those rules get modified (for clarification of course) for next year!

 

[Whereditgo]

If it (deploying a safety car) was purely about safety then, all cars circulating should be told to hit their pit lane limiter and hold station until the it is safe to resume racing, but (IMO) the safety car scenario is intended, or at least there is a happy consequence, to bunch the cars back up to reduce the number of times the lead car just clears off and the safety car incident manufactures a race.

To me (another one time F1 fan) the 'sport' loses credibility when a car is 12 seconds down the road with a handful of laps left and the driver in second is enabled to close up to the leaders rear wing.

 

[Foxholer]

They're making it up as they go along to protect and justify the decision made. Nowhere in the rules does it say that 48.13 overrides 48.12.

I can't believe that in a sport that is so black and white when it comes to the rules that this incident can possibly be allowed to happen. Mercedes got penalised (correctly IMO) earlier in the season because of a problem with the rear wing being a mm or two out of spec. That's how tight the rules are yet Masi has ignored the rules and protocols purely to create an entertaining end to the season. That's not his job, his job is to apply the rules correctly.

Perhaps. But that's how they ruled Mercedes's claim out.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Perhaps. But that's how they ruled Mercedes's claim out.

Will be interesting to see if it stands up in a court of law, assuming Mercedes decide to take it that far. My personal opinion is that they would win the argument that the rules weren't followed but whether that would actually change anything is another matter.

 

[Swango1980]

Perhaps. But that's how they ruled Mercedes's claim out.

It was literally their only way to try and wriggle out of a humiliating corner they backed themselves into. But, as I said in my last post, it means that the Race Director can basically do what he likes in many situations and simply say the that his decision overrides any written regulations. I'm unsure how the Sport Court of Arbitration works, but having read some articles on that today, if Mercedes bring it to them, the FIA will struggle to have a leg to stand on. Furthermore, regardless of that, much of the damage has already been done. F1's reputation has taken a kicking. Not just yesterday, but crazy decisions by the FIA all season have caused concern. Yesterday was the icing on the cake, the cliffhanger that would be written into a movie script.

No doubt more clarification will be written into the rules next year, however I'm pretty sure they will be updated to largely back the way Mercedes expected the race to finish yesterday. I'd be shocked if the regulations were written to highlight that the race director can do as he pleases

 

[Beedee]

If it (deploying a safety car) was purely about safety then, all cars circulating should be told to hit their pit lane limiter and hold station until the it is safe to resume racing, but (IMO) the safety car scenario is intended, or at least there is a happy consequence, to bunch the cars back up to reduce the number of times the lead car just clears off and the safety car incident manufactures a race.

To me (another one time F1 fan) the 'sport' loses credibility when a car is 12 seconds down the road with a handful of laps left and the driver in second is enabled to close up to the leaders rear wing.

The safety car is deliberately to bunch the field together but it's for safety reasons rather than spectacle. It's so that the cars are all in the same short section of the track. That means that the track is empty for a minute or so at a time. Much safer for the marshalls than the track being constantly busy with slower moving cars. The safety car isn't going that slowly either. It's just slow compared to an F1 car. If it went any slower, or if the cars were on pit lane limiters, they'd lose all temperature in their tyres and brakes. It would be carnage on the restart.

Personally I think the rule should be that the lapped cars stay in position. The leader had to lap them so so should the pursuers. If they really must get them out of the way then why not allow the field to bunch, then all lapped cars must trundle through the pits. That would drop them back and allow the field to bunch up again in under a lap.

 

[woofers]

If it (deploying a safety car) was purely about safety then, all cars circulating should be told to hit their pit lane limiter and hold station until the it is safe to resume racing, but (IMO) the safety car scenario is intended, or at least there is a happy consequence, to bunch the cars back up to reduce the number of times the lead car just clears off and the safety car incident manufactures a race.

To me (another one time F1 fan) the 'sport' loses credibility when a car is 12 seconds down the road with a handful of laps left and the driver in second is enabled to close up to the leaders rear wing.

Totally agree. Surely the simplest way to resolve this in future is for the cars to maintain the distances relative to their rivals, just like they do when the ‘virtual safety car’ is in operation. Simple to change and implement?

 

[Whereditgo]

The safety car is deliberately to bunch the field together but it's for safety reasons rather than spectacle. It's so that the cars are all in the same short section of the track. That means that the track is empty for a minute or so at a time. Much safer for the marshalls than the track being constantly busy with slower moving cars. The safety car isn't going that slowly either. It's just slow compared to an F1 car. If it went any slower, or if the cars were on pit lane limiters, they'd lose all temperature in their tyres and brakes. It would be carnage on the restart.

Personally I think the rule should be that the lapped cars stay in position. The leader had to lap them so so should the pursuers. If they really must get them out of the way then why not allow the field to bunch, then all lapped cars must trundle through the pits. That would drop them back and allow the field to bunch up again in under a lap.

I realise that it is primarily a safety issue, but with a maximum of what?, 20 cars circulating at reduced speeds it's not not like the M25 for the marshalls. Then have a 1 lap yellow flag lap if tyre temperature is really a concern.

 

[Piece]

Lewis was cruising to win the World Championship with a 12 second lead with 6 laps to go. Verstappen was second but with 5 lapped cars between him and Lewis.
There was a crash (Latifi), safety car came out.
The FIA director broke the rules by removing the lapped cars in Max's way and allowed Max to catch Lewis up. They were wrongly given one lap to race for the championship. Lewis on old hard tyres, Max on fresh soft tyres.
Lewis had no defence and Max overtook him.
Max wins and is champion because he was in the right place on the right tyres when the race director did not follow the rules.

Not 100% correct. What should have happened is that ALL eight lapped cars to overtake the SC, not just the ones in front of Max. Then the SC pulls in at the end of the next lap - the final lap - so race ends in a SC.

Masi was/is "protected" by a seemingly catch-all rule, where he has "overriding authority".

 

[Sports_Fanatic]

You've got to wonder what would happen if Ferrari took to the FIA to court on this. I know it ended up irrelevant for them, but I can't see any argument that would allow the rules to be broken in a way that allows Max in P2 a clear start to attack Hamilton, and yet gets the benefit of lapped cars behind him to prevent Sainz having a go.

Sainz was on hard tyres so unlikely to impact, but Max could easily have got a pass wrong, run wide, have to give a place back and then be in trouble if Sainz on same tyres as Hamilton was right behind him.

Masi new the outcome of restarting or not restarting the race given the tyre difference so by not following the rules he made a deliberate choice. Red flag - not within rules but at least equal. Restart with lapped cars in the way, I expect Max wins but at least fair fight, move cars to unlap sooner so time to race, Max wins but fair or finish under safety car and Lewis wins all fine. The only thing he really couldn't do is go against the exact wording of the walls just for entertainment and opening F1 up to this. Still I expect he may be happy as it gets the attention and talked about finale.

 

[Cherry13]

What I don’t understand is Masi’ comment ‘we went motor racing’ surely if that was his intent and he wanted to create that then he should have red flagged the race.
Ultimately he’s panicked, and in that panic he’s allowed a situation to manifest that enables one team to cry foul, surely his first and foremost responsibility is to maintain the integrity of the sport and the race. (After safety of course) It’s been a shambles and left a bitter taste, I genuinely think it leaves Masi in an untenable position, they just need to work out how he leaves without some form of admission of guilt. I suspect cooler heads will prevail, Lewis will distance himself from the furore and Mercedes’ will be happy being the aggrieved party.

What a shame for kimi whos send off was diluted, and a shame for Max that this will slightly tarnish his first win. Looking forward to next year already, but I do hope the next drive to survive is not a court room drama.

 

[Foxholer]

If it (deploying a safety car) was purely about safety then, all cars circulating should be told to hit their pit lane limiter and hold station until the it is safe to resume racing, but (IMO) the safety car scenario is intended, or at least there is a happy consequence, to bunch the cars back up to reduce the number of times the lead car just clears off and the safety car incident manufactures a race.

To me (another one time F1 fan) the 'sport' loses credibility when a car is 12 seconds down the road with a handful of laps left and the driver in second is enabled to close up to the leaders rear wing.

I'd suggest a 'Safety Car Limiter' as opposed to your 'Pit Lane' one. Restart would be unsafe because of the significant difference in speeds between the two. Pit Lane limiter is 80Kph on race day (60 in practice), whereas Safety Car has been clocked at nearly 160mph in 'speed trap'. The higher speed for SC is so that race cars can keep tyre temps up to proper working temps.

 

[Cherry13]

You've got to wonder what would happen if Ferrari took to the FIA to court on this. I know it ended up irrelevant for them, but I can't see any argument that would allow the rules to be broken in a way that allows Max in P2 a clear start to attack Hamilton, and yet gets the benefit of lapped cars behind him to prevent Sainz having a go.

Sainz was on hard tyres so unlikely to impact, but Max could easily have got a pass wrong, run wide, have to give a place back and then be in trouble if Sainz on same tyres as Hamilton was right behind him.

Masi new the outcome of restarting or not restarting the race given the tyre difference so by not following the rules he made a deliberate choice. Red flag - not within rules but at least equal. Restart with lapped cars in the way, I expect Max wins but at least fair fight, move cars to unlap sooner so time to race, Max wins but fair or finish under safety car and Lewis wins all fine. The only thing he really couldn't do is go against the exact wording of the walls just for entertainment and opening F1 up to this. Still I expect he may be happy as it gets the attention and talked about finale.

Why couldn’t it be red-flagged? Too far into the race?

 

[bobmac]

Not 100% correct. What should have happened is that ALL eight lapped cars to overtake the SC, not just the ones in front of Max. Then the SC pulls in at the end of the next lap - the final lap - so race ends in a SC.

I'm well aware of that. Please see post no. 969.
I was summarising the events in which only 5 lapped cars were allowed to pass the SC, therefor removing the cars in Max's way.
If you're looking for an argument, please try and find someone who disagrees with you. Thank you

 

[Whereditgo]

I'd suggest a 'Safety Car Limiter' as opposed to your 'Pit Lane' one. Restart would be unsafe because of the significant difference in speeds between the two. Pit Lane limiter is 80Kph on race day (60 in practice), whereas Safety Car has been clocked at nearly 160mph in 'speed trap'. The higher speed for SC is so that race cars can keep tyre temps up to proper working temps.

Yeah, I realise that the pit lane limiter would be way too slow, even behind the safety car the race cars tyre temperature drops out of the optimum range owing to the lower cornering capability of the safety car, irrespective of it's straight line speed.

 

[Swango1980]

I realise that it is primarily a safety issue, but with a maximum of what?, 20 cars circulating at reduced speeds it's not not like the M25 for the marshalls. Then have a 1 lap yellow flag lap if tyre temperature is really a concern.

20 cars circulating at reduced speeds, but still well over 100 mph. Just saw some stats from Canada. Under normal conditions, F1 cars took the speed trap before Turn 13 at over 188 mph. Under the safety car, they took the speed trap at "only" 160 mph. So, put yourself in the position of a race martial, who may be clearing large parts of a track of debris, or in a vulnerable position repairing a barrier or removing a car. You have up to 20 cars randomly driving past at well over 100 mph. I wouldn't fancy it.

As Beedee said, bunching the cars together is purely about safety. It leaves large windows where marshals will know the track will be clear of F1 cars. Safety is the only reason the safety car will be out in the first place. It will often be seen as the last resort (well, before red flagging the race anyway). So, bunching the field is absolutely not an intended consequence to simply wipe out a large gap between cars. If it was intended, then the safety car would be brought out much more often.

This is the benefit of the Virtual Safety Car, where these gaps remain in place. This is the preferred option over the full Safety Car, but will only be chosen if it is considered safe.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

FIA appeal result is in, can't say I'm surprised by the result

https://newsthump.com/2021/12/13/fi...or-mercedes-appeal-awards-penalty-to-man-utd/

 

[cliveb]

Why couldn’t it be red-flagged? Too far into the race?

Yes. Red flag after 75% of the race is usually the end of proceedings.

 

[cliveb]

As Beedee said, bunching the cars together is purely about safety. It leaves large windows where marshals will know the track will be clear of F1 cars.

Here's a thought. Perhaps after a safety car period ends, the cars are required to spend the next lap re-establishing the gaps that existed beforehand, then the green flag comes out on the following lap.

i appreciate this would reduce the spectacle, but it would certainly be fairer.