F1 2021

[Whereditgo]

20 cars circulating at reduced speeds, but still well over 100 mph. Just saw some stats from Canada. Under normal conditions, F1 cars took the speed trap before Turn 13 at over 188 mph. Under the safety car, they took the speed trap at "only" 160 mph. So, put yourself in the position of a race martial, who may be clearing large parts of a track of debris, or in a vulnerable position repairing a barrier or removing a car. You have up to 20 cars randomly driving past at well over 100 mph. I wouldn't fancy it.

As Beedee said, bunching the cars together is purely about safety. It leaves large windows where marshals will know the track will be clear of F1 cars. Safety is the only reason the safety car will be out in the first place. It will often be seen as the last resort (well, before red flagging the race anyway). So, bunching the field is absolutely not an intended consequence to simply wipe out a large gap between cars. If it was intended, then the safety car would be brought out much more often.

This is the benefit of the Virtual Safety Car, where these gaps remain in place. This is the preferred option over the full Safety Car, but will only be chosen if it is considered safe.

I'm not suggesting the cars (less than 20, because at least one has been involved in the incident, in fact I think there were substantially less than 20 still on track?) circulate at the speeds you are stating, I originally suggested the pit lane speed limiter be employed, but agreed that would be too slow. The cars are also able to slow further if necessary as they approach and pass the incident. You seem to be suggesting that the 160 mph behind the safety car is a safer speed? Whilst I get that the safety of marshalls and drivers is paramount, the safety car too often affects the result.

Personally I think the race directors statement of "we went racing" indicates that he thought he was doing the right thing by trying to get the race finished under a green flag, but that was a mistake.

 

[Foxholer]

Here's a thought. Perhaps after a safety car period ends, the cars are required to spend the next lap re-establishing the gaps that existed beforehand, then the green flag comes out on the following lap.

i appreciate this would reduce the spectacle, but it would certainly be fairer.

Or 'equally unfair'!

 

[Wildboy370]

Having read numerous comments on various websites, it would appear there is a large slice of nationalism on behalf of Hamilton was hard done by. It has to be said if roles had been reversed very few would of batted an eye lid. People saying red bull manipulated the stewards, but very little if any mention of Toto Wolff telling, not asking telling the stewards do not give me a safety car when the first incident happened. Mercedes’ rolled the dice as did red bull at the end of the race. Mercedes’ actually told Hamilton we cannot pit we will loose track position. When it had all ended they then changed this to we didnt change tyres as we thought race was going to end and we would of changed strategy. They didn’t and red bull did. 50/50 chance of getting this right. Did the race director make a mistake, probably but the rules in F1 as all the sky commentators said are so open to interpretation. Was Hamilton forced off track earlier in race, stewards said yes but plenty of previous races this has not been given , interpretation. And the question is why did Mercedes bring a lawyer to the race for first time this season. Smacks of win at all costs. F1 for years has been a procession won by the team with the best man on a laptop ( strategy engineer ) and for once we watched an exciting race Ending instead of 20s between cars. Let’s hope the changes for next season makes for far better racing, overtaking and not won on pit stops.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm not suggesting the cars (less than 20, because at least one has been involved in the incident, in fact I think there were substantially less than 20 still on track?) circulate at the speeds you are stating, I originally suggested the pit lane speed limiter be employed, but agreed that would be too slow. The cars are also able to slow further if necessary as they approach and pass the incident. You seem to be suggesting that the 160 mph behind the safety car is a safer speed? Whilst I get that the safety of marshalls and drivers is paramount, the safety car too often affects the result.

Personally I think the race directors statement of "we went racing" indicates that he thought he was doing the right thing by trying to get the race finished under a green flag, but that was a mistake.

But, you are essentially describing the Virtual Safety Car, are you not? Which already exists, and often utilised.

I've no doubt the safety car does wipe out any advantage someone had in terms of time with the car behind. It can be seen as unfair, but it has long been accepted. And, in fairness, it does introduce an element of tactics that can be used by the team, so I'm not personally worried about it in general.

The key criticism is not what happens behind safety car. Had there been no lapped cars between Max and Lewis, the safety car would have been very unlucky for Lewis, but there'd have been no inconsistency in the application of the rules. The biggest issue is the FIA's completely new interpretation of their own guidelines, something that had never been done before.

 

[Swango1980]

Having read numerous comments on various websites, it would appear there is a large slice of nationalism on behalf of Hamilton was hard done by. It has to be said if roles had been reversed very few would of batted an eye lid. People saying red bull manipulated the stewards, but very little if any mention of Toto Wolff telling, not asking telling the stewards do not give me a safety car when the first incident happened. Mercedes’ rolled the dice as did red bull at the end of the race. Mercedes’ actually told Hamilton we cannot pit we will loose track position. When it had all ended they then changed this to we didnt change tyres as we thought race was going to end and we would of changed strategy. They didn’t and red bull did. 50/50 chance of getting this right. Did the race director make a mistake, probably but the rules in F1 as all the sky commentators said are so open to interpretation. Was Hamilton forced off track earlier in race, stewards said yes but plenty of previous races this has not been given , interpretation. And the question is why did Mercedes bring a lawyer to the race for first time this season. Smacks of win at all costs. F1 for years has been a procession won by the team with the best man on a laptop ( strategy engineer ) and for once we watched an exciting race Ending instead of 20s between cars. Let’s hope the changes for next season makes for far better racing, overtaking and not won on pit stops.

Of course they thought race would end. It would have ended if Masi had proceeded in the normal regulated way under safety car. He didn't. There was no way Mercedes could have predicted he'd tear up the rule book. That is exactly why they have protested.

I don't think many in here believe teams should be in direct contact with Race Director, and potentially influence his position. This happens every race, so we could point to many teams doing this throughout the season.

I very much doubt Masi is intentionally biased towards Red Bull because he prefers them, or in their pay book. However, Mercedes and Hamilton have dominated for a number of years, and that often is not healthy for the spectacle. So, with Max and Red Bull getting right in contention through this season, I imagine Masi has been reluctant to penalise Max at times, because he fears it may have put him on the back foot and put him behind Hamilton. I'm sure he'd have acted differently if other drivers had been involved in similar incidents.

Yesterday was bizarre. There is an argument Lewis could have been asked to give the position back at the start, it was touch and go. Red Bull played the victim, and let him know. I reckon this might have also influenced his decision at the end, suddenly manipulating a procedure to benefit Red Bull. But, it was like not giving Man Utd a free kick against Liverpool after 15 minutes when he could have done, and then to "balance" this, in 90th minute when Utd win a throw in, actually giving them a penalty instead.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Having read numerous comments on various websites, it would appear there is a large slice of nationalism on behalf of Hamilton was hard done by. It has to be said if roles had been reversed very few would of batted an eye lid. People saying red bull manipulated the stewards, but very little if any mention of Toto Wolff telling, not asking telling the stewards do not give me a safety car when the first incident happened. Mercedes’ rolled the dice as did red bull at the end of the race. Mercedes’ actually told Hamilton we cannot pit we will loose track position. When it had all ended they then changed this to we didnt change tyres as we thought race was going to end and we would of changed strategy. They didn’t and red bull did. 50/50 chance of getting this right. Did the race director make a mistake, probably but the rules in F1 as all the sky commentators said are so open to interpretation. Was Hamilton forced off track earlier in race, stewards said yes but plenty of previous races this has not been given , interpretation. And the question is why did Mercedes bring a lawyer to the race for first time this season. Smacks of win at all costs. F1 for years has been a procession won by the team with the best man on a laptop ( strategy engineer ) and for once we watched an exciting race Ending instead of 20s between cars. Let’s hope the changes for next season makes for far better racing, overtaking and not won on pit stops.

The lawyer was there as a guest of the team. If not, and was there as part of the team. I call that being prepared after some of the decisions we’ve seen this season.

Could you tell me a time when F1 wasn’t about employing the best technology and strategy? Or when every race was full of overtaking and last lap wins?

All of the contrived entertainment that people seem to want from F1 is available in any number of other race series, yet nobody watches them. Funny that!

Like a few others on here I am a fan of the sport more than I am a particular driver or team. That might be difficult to understand for some of the football fans on here.
What we’ve seen from Brazil concluding with the farce yesterday was not the F1 I want to watch.

People complain that it’s boring with Lewis winning all the time, clearly only see the results. The last 5 seasons have had some incredible racing, certainly some of the best I have seen.
F1 is about which team can build the fastest most reliable car to put the best driver in. Mercedes and Lewis have been the best at doing that there has ever been.

I was looking forward to the change in regulations shaking things up next season. But I hope Mercedes turn up next season and destroy the competition again.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Redbull making noises about pulling out of F1 should Mercedes be successful with their appeal. Suggests to me that Mercedes may have a strong case!

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Having read numerous comments on various websites, it would appear there is a large slice of nationalism on behalf of Hamilton was hard done by. It has to be said if roles had been reversed very few would of batted an eye lid. People saying red bull manipulated the stewards, but very little if any mention of Toto Wolff telling, not asking telling the stewards do not give me a safety car when the first incident happened. Mercedes’ rolled the dice as did red bull at the end of the race. Mercedes’ actually told Hamilton we cannot pit we will loose track position. When it had all ended they then changed this to we didnt change tyres as we thought race was going to end and we would of changed strategy. They didn’t and red bull did. 50/50 chance of getting this right. Did the race director make a mistake, probably but the rules in F1 as all the sky commentators said are so open to interpretation. Was Hamilton forced off track earlier in race, stewards said yes but plenty of previous races this has not been given , interpretation. And the question is why did Mercedes bring a lawyer to the race for first time this season. Smacks of win at all costs. F1 for years has been a procession won by the team with the best man on a laptop ( strategy engineer ) and for once we watched an exciting race Ending instead of 20s between cars. Let’s hope the changes for next season makes for far better racing, overtaking and not won on pit stops.

Did Mercedes actually say that?

As to why merc brought a barrister, it’s not hard to see why they might have foreseen the possibility of a controversial end given how things have gone so far this season and the way Verstappen drove at Saudi in particular.

I don’t agree with the majority of your post, and I’ve set my view out clearly already so won’t repeat it. Clearly this is a subject that will split opinion, perhaps there’s a difference in view between F1 purists and those that are more about the entertainment. Personally, as a self proclaimed purist, I didn’t feel F1 needed the engineered drama, but from this thread alone we know there are plenty of others that found it dull. C’est la vie.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Redbull making noises about pulling out of F1 should Mercedes be successful with their appeal. Suggests to me that Mercedes may have a strong case!

They would have already pulled out had the roles been reversed yesterday and Verstappen had lost in that fashion.

 

[Slime]

Redbull making noises about pulling out of F1 should Mercedes be successful with their appeal. Suggests to me that Mercedes may have a strong case!

Really?

 

[Imurg]

They should declare the result null and void and declare joint Champions
They were tied on points, Max has one win extra courtesy of the debacle earlier in the year...
Its the only way to stop F1 being dragged through the courts and being made to look even sillier than it already does.
And we though Golf has problems with rules......

 

[ColchesterFC]

Redbull making noises about pulling out of F1 should Mercedes be successful with their appeal. Suggests to me that Mercedes may have a strong case!

IF that's true then that's outrageous. Red Bull essentially blackmailing F1 to find in their favour.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Really disappointing way to end it all and one that irrespective of what side of the fence you sit on leaves a bad taste. I think the FIA made it a mockery and carry all of the blame. I think Mercedes should drop any further appeals, accept the result and work towards getting revenge next season. I'm sure they won't though and the discussion of the rules, their correct application (or not), any court cases and argument about what went on makes F1 look daft and only goes to alienate and lose those fans such a thrilling climax will have attracted

 

[Sports_Fanatic]

Yes. Red flag after 75% of the race is usually the end of proceedings.

Think that rule was scrapped. I said not done thing on red flag as they typically do safety car to clear smaller crashes, but then they follow the rules on unlapping and release. If they were moving away from the rules to create entertainment then a 5 lap sprint race (i.e. immediately red flag as not willing to have a SC be the end of championship) on softs would have been the better option.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

IF that's true then that's outrageous. Red Bull essentially blackmailing F1 to find in their favour.

It’s nothing to do with F1 now! Ferrari used to do it all the time, and it wouldn’t be the first time Marco has said that. Redbull won’t pull out, it’s far too commercially valuable to them.

If I were Mercedes hearing that, I would push the case as hard as possible.

 

[ColchesterFC]

It’s nothing to do with F1 now! Ferrari used to do it all the time. Redbull won’t pull out, it’s far too commercially valuable to them.

If I were Mercedes hearing that, I would push the case as hard as possible.

Is the initial appeal not still to the FIA/F1? I assumed that they'd had their initial objections rejected and now would appeal against that finding. If that appeal fails then I thought the next step would be law courts or CAS.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Is the initial appeal not still to the FIA/F1? I assumed that they'd had their initial objections rejected and now would appeal against that finding. If that appeal fails then I thought the next step would be law courts or CAS.

Yes, you may be right. I was assuming it was going to CAS.

 

[Swango1980]

Really disappointing way to end it all and one that irrespective of what side of the fence you sit on leaves a bad taste. I think the FIA made it a mockery and carry all of the blame. I think Mercedes should drop any further appeals, accept the result and work towards getting revenge next season. I'm sure they won't though and the discussion of the rules, their correct application (or not), any court cases and argument about what went on makes F1 look daft and only goes to alienate and lose those fans such a thrilling climax will have attracted

Let us just remember, it is not Mercedes that are making F1 looking daft. They were the victims in this farcical end to the season.

The FIA (Masi) need to be held accountable. Otherwise they can effectively do as they wish in the future, making bizarre decisions that could cost companies millions.

 

[theoneandonly]

Redbull making noises about pulling out of F1 should Mercedes be successful with their appeal. Suggests to me that Mercedes may have a strong case!

Marko is a whiny knob and has said that at various times over the years for various reasons. I wouldn't pay mutch attention to him

 

[Piece]

I'm well aware of that. Please see post no. 969.
I was summarising the events in which only 5 lapped cars were allowed to pass the SC, therefor removing the cars in Max's way.
If you're looking for an argument, please try and find someone who disagrees with you. Thank you

Huh? It was an innocent comment on a comment. Time to dial down the sensitivity level