F1 2021

[Swango1980]

Watch Max’s car and his steering inputs ..
Another interesting observation was that most of other drivers did not put up any form defence .. Which kind of sums up F1, DRS and fixed engine regs

It is true, they did not. They had no defence, the Mercedes was much quicker. The defence is to force the overtaking driver to take as wide a line as possible, and keep them wide by taking the inside of the corner. Or, let them charge up the inside so that they exit the corner wide, hoping to get back up the inside of them after exiting the corner. Both may be futile options if the overtaking car is much quicker, but it at least makes it trickier for them. Max did neither. Would he have done the same thing if there was a wall on the outside of the bend, or a tyre barrier? I doubt it, he would have gone straight into it himself.

Can we analyse Max's braking inputs, I assume that is relevant?

 

[harpo_72]

It is true, they did not. They had no defence, the Mercedes was much quicker. The defence is to force the overtaking driver to take as wide a line as possible, and keep them wide by taking the inside of the corner. Or, let them charge up the inside so that they exit the corner wide, hoping to get back up the inside of them after exiting the corner. Both may be futile options if the overtaking car is much quicker, but it at least makes it trickier for them. Max did neither. Would he have done the same thing if there was a wall on the outside of the bend, or a tyre barrier? I doubt it, he would have gone straight into it himself.

Can we analyse Max's braking inputs, I assume that is relevant?

They will have all the car data , and they will also have an under steer measurement based on angle of input and gps.
The other counter point is would Hamilton go up the outside if a barrier was there and not run off ?
Wait and see what the judgement is.

 

[Swango1980]

They will have all the car data , and they will also have an under steer measurement based on angle of input and gps.
The other counter point is would Hamilton go up the outside if a barrier was there and not run off ?
Wait and see what the judgement is.

No, but as others have said, that is not the question. The question is, would Hamilton have made the corner had Max not charged up the inside of him? It looked like he was making it just fine, and then had to turn out of it to avoid Max. There is no rule to say drivers should not overtake on the outside of another driver if there is a barrier, so it is not really a counter argument.

I've little issue in steering, I'm more interested in braking. If a driver fails to brake in time, they can do what they like with the steering, they are not going to make the corner.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

I don't understand your point of view on this, Harpo, or those questioning whether Lewis was past Verstappen.

In my mind it's very clear, if Verstappen had braked sufficiently to make the corner (i.e. stay on the circuit), he would have been a car length behind Hamilton from the middle of the turn all the way through to the exit. As such, by braking so late that he did not make the corner, and in the process forcing Hamilton off too, Verstappen gained an advantage by leaving the circuit. If he hadn't left the circuit, he would have been behind Hamilton.

For what it's worth, I don't think Verstappen meant to go off the track, he meant to try and outbreak Hamilton and reclaim the corner. The lack of tyre grip then caused him to run wide. It was a risky decision from him, but I don't think there was any intention to cause a collision, it's just his all or nothing style. He will learn in time that it's not the best way to win championships - for every 7 points it gains, there will be incidents that needlessly result in him not finishing the race.

 

[harpo_72]

No, but as others have said, that is not the question. The question is, would Hamilton have made the corner had Max not charged up the inside of him? It looked like he was making it just fine, and then had to turn out of it to avoid Max. There is no rule to say drivers should not overtake on the outside of another driver if there is a barrier, so it is not really a counter argument.

I've little issue in steering, I'm more interested in braking. If a driver fails to brake in time, they can do what they like with the steering, they are not going to make the corner.

Don’t think you can cherry pick the data both sides will present their data the way they want and the FIA will analyse it from their perspective.
They will see both drivers brakes at different points to their average through the stint. But given the corners nature you will see a variation and if your good you will see a trend. Fuel load and tyre life are critical but people forget the brake life and balance.
So if you consider all these facts , you would say Max’s mistake was viable and running wide was a consequence. The next question is did he try and overcome the running wide .. so you look at steering inputs and suspension loads ..
Or you can ask if Hamilton thought it was a realistic opportunity and give him the full forensic study …

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Don’t think you can cherry pick the data both sides will present their data the way they want and the FIA will analyse it from their perspective.
They will see both drivers brakes at different points to their average through the stint. But given the corners nature you will see a variation and if your good you will see a trend. Fuel load and tyre life are critical but people forget the brake life and balance.
So if you consider all these facts , you would say Max’s mistake was viable and running wide was a consequence. The next question is did he try and overcome the running wide .. so you look at steering inputs and suspension loads ..
Or you can ask if Hamilton thought it was a realistic opportunity and give him the full forensic study …

Simple question, had Verstappen applied the brakes in time to make the corner, who would have been ahead? If the answer is Hamilton, then Verstappen gained an advantage from leaving the circuit.

Perhaps I'm being simple, when I look at the footage, there's no question that Verstappen only gets back up the inside because he brakes too late to make the corner.

That said, I think the decision will go Red Bull's way as I don't think there's anything new in the images to overturn the incorrect decision made during the race. If the footage had shown Verstappen opening up the steering, that would be different, but it doesn't. We all knew he made a pigs ear of the corner when we watched the race on Sunday.

 

[harpo_72]

I don't understand your point of view on this, Harpo, or those questioning whether Lewis was past Verstappen.

In my mind it's very clear, if Verstappen had braked sufficiently to make the corner (i.e. stay on the circuit), he would have been a car length behind Hamilton from the middle of the turn all the way through to the exit. As such, by braking so late that he did not make the corner, and in the process forcing Hamilton off too, Verstappen gained an advantage by leaving the circuit. If he hadn't left the circuit, he would have been behind Hamilton.

For what it's worth, I don't think Verstappen meant to go off the track, he meant to try and outbreak Hamilton and reclaim the corner. The lack of tyre grip then caused him to run wide. It was a risky decision from him, but I don't think there was any intention to cause a collision, it's just his all or nothing style. He will learn in time that it's not the best way to win championships - for every 7 points it gains, there will be incidents that needlessly result in him not finishing the race.

My view point is Max defended his position and because he had entry what he does in the corner dictates to all that follow him.. and Hamilton realised this backed out and allowed the ensuing mess to happen, without picking up damage.
You are entitled to contest the entry to a corner, but what I see here and also your statement was no he should have braked earlier and given the corner to Hamilton- is that racing?
If the ruling is in Mercedes favour today, we will never see any defensive driving in the future.

 

[Piece]

Nothing I've read on this forum or seen from the footage changes my mind that MV knew that Hamilton was going to overtake him and therefore conveniently held his line knowing that he was going to overrun the corner and leave it to Hamilton to either crash or run even wider. Based on other incidents throughout the season, MV will do well to avoid a penalty, IMHO.

 

[Swango1980]

Don’t think you can cherry pick the data both sides will present their data the way they want and the FIA will analyse it from their perspective.
They will see both drivers brakes at different points to their average through the stint. But given the corners nature you will see a variation and if your good you will see a trend. Fuel load and tyre life are critical but people forget the brake life and balance.
So if you consider all these facts , you would say Max’s mistake was viable and running wide was a consequence. The next question is did he try and overcome the running wide .. so you look at steering inputs and suspension loads ..
Or you can ask if Hamilton thought it was a realistic opportunity and give him the full forensic study …

So, you acknowledge Max made a mistake. A mistake he benefited from at the expense of Hamilton. That is all I needed to know.

 

[harpo_72]

Simple question, had Verstappen applied the brakes in time to make the corner, who would have been ahead? If the answer is Hamilton, then Verstappen gained an advantage from leaving the circuit.

Perhaps I'm being simple, when I look at the footage, there's no question that Verstappen only gets back up the inside because he brakes too late to make the corner.

That said, I think the decision will go Red Bull's way as I don't think there's anything new in the images to overturn the incorrect decision made during the race. If the footage had shown Verstappen opening up the steering, that would be different, but it doesn't. We all knew he made a pigs ear of the corner when we watched the race on Sunday.

Hamilton was looking to cut across from a wide line to the apex... by doing so he would have stymied Max entry speed and put time between himself and Max.
Max opted to carry more speed and have a wider exit (probably not as wide as he got) this would have bulked Hamilton and bought respite.
He looks like he made a mess of it and it was messy but he reacted to it by putting more steering angle. He put one wheel onto the marbles and you see the car react accordingly, from there on out it’s a clean up job.

 

[harpo_72]

So, you acknowledge Max made a mistake. A mistake he benefited from at the expense of Hamilton. That is all I needed to know.

Said that right at the beginning.. it’s just because he had entry he was entitled to that mistake without penalty.
Your arguing for a penalty because he did not submit, you don’t want to see a race. I suggest you watch buses and pick a favourite.. you can even get a ride on it

 

[Piece]

My view point is Max defended his position and because he had entry what he does in the corner dictates to all that follow him.. and Hamilton realised this backed out and allowed the ensuing mess to happen, without picking up damage.
You are entitled to contest the entry to a corner, but what I see here and also your statement was no he should have braked earlier and given the corner to Hamilton- is that racing?
If the ruling is in Mercedes favour today, we will never see any defensive driving in the future.

The point is that Hamilton was the one that was going to make the corner. Max didn't make the corner and didn't want to because he knew where Hamilton was going to be. There was no locking of brakes which would have indicated he misjudged the corner.

Semi-serious point - perhaps Bottas could learn from MV here!

 

[Canary_Yellow]

My view point is Max defended his position and because he had entry what he does in the corner dictates to all that follow him.. and Hamilton realised this backed out and allowed the ensuing mess to happen, without picking up damage.
You are entitled to contest the entry to a corner, but what I see here and also your statement was no he should have braked earlier and given the corner to Hamilton- is that racing?
If the ruling is in Mercedes favour today, we will never see any defensive driving in the future.

Your argument is undermined by Max not making the corner.

My argument isn't that he should have braked earlier and given the corner to hamilton, it's that he should have braked in time to make the turn without going off the circuit.

 

[bobmac]

You are entitled to contest the entry to a corner, but what I see here and also your statement was no he should have braked earlier and given the corner to Hamilton- is that racing?

No, he should have braked earlier and stayed within track limits.
Just because you don't wont to lose the corner, doesn't mean you can break the rules to do so.

 

[Swango1980]

Said that right at the beginning.. it’s just because he had entry he was entitled to that mistake without penalty.
Your arguing for a penalty because he did not submit, you don’t want to see a race. I suggest you watch buses and pick a favourite.. you can even get a ride on it

So, to be clear, your argument is that drivers can make the mistake of completely failing to take a corner, potentially causing a crash if the driver in front does not take avoiding action? And that is racing? I'm not even sure that is acceptable in go karting.

 

[harpo_72]

So, to be clear, your argument is that drivers can make the mistake of completely failing to take a corner, potentially causing a crash if the driver in front does not take avoiding action? And that is racing? I'm not even sure that is acceptable in go karting.

Your suggestion is he just rammed Hamilton , correct? You are saying he deliberately went to hit Hamilton and lap 48 was his earliest opportunity to do so and he categorically missed every opportunity up until lap 59 when he was passed… You are also concluding Hamilton would have made the corner cleanly, without chopping Max’s nose cone off ( by the way he is allowed to do that but it’s a pointless thing to do as he may ruin his own race)

 

[harpo_72]

No, he should have braked earlier and stayed within track limits.
Just because you don't wont to lose the corner, doesn't mean you can break the rules to do so.

Bob on entry he hadn’t broken any rules .. that’s the point, in the mid it’s a clusterf**k but that’s irrelevant

 

[Swango1980]

Your suggestion is he just rammed Hamilton , correct? You are saying he deliberately went to hit Hamilton and lap 48 was his earliest opportunity to do so and he categorically missed every opportunity up until lap 59 when he was passed… You are also concluding Hamilton would have made the corner cleanly, without chopping Max’s nose cone off ( by the way he is allowed to do that but it’s a pointless thing to do as he may ruin his own race)

No, not at all. I'm not saying Max actively steered into Lewis. He could have done that as soon as Lewis was alongside him if he wanted to do that.

I'm saying he failed to take the corner by not applying the brakes. He either accepted he'd crash into the side of Hamilton if he did not yield, push them both off track if Hamilton did yield, or simply got it completely wrong in terms of braking. Whichever of those options, Max needs to take responsibility.

In terms of Lewis turning into the corner, are you trying to say Lewis is not entitled to take the corner? Max would have had plenty of space to take that corner had he used his brakes in time. He didn't. If you think it is acceptable what Max did, that is actually going to kill racing. Because no one will ever try and overtake on the outside again, because they know the guy on the inside is allowed to ram them off the track by not braking.

 

[harpo_72]

The point is that Hamilton was the one that was going to make the corner. Max didn't make the corner and didn't want to because he knew where Hamilton was going to be. There was no locking of brakes which would have indicated he misjudged the corner.

Semi-serious point - perhaps Bottas could learn from MV here!

That’s a bit hypothetical , we don’t know that for sure. Hamilton had not done enough in this effort, but had Max capitulated would Hamilton’s line been good enough to stay inside the circuit confines ( which brings me back to an earlier point would he have tried if there was no run off) . If there was any brake locking, the car would not turn

 

[harpo_72]

No, not at all. I'm not saying Max actively steered into Lewis. He could have done that as soon as Lewis was alongside him if he wanted to do that.

I'm saying he failed to take the corner by not applying the brakes. He either accepted he'd crash into the side of Hamilton if he did not yield, push them both off track if Hamilton did yield, or simply got it completely wrong in terms of braking. Whichever of those options, Max needs to take responsibility.

In terms of Lewis turning into the corner, are you trying to say Lewis is not entitled to take the corner? Max would have had plenty of space to take that corner had he used his brakes in time. He didn't. If you think it is acceptable what Max did, that is actually going to kill racing. Because no one will ever try and overtake on the outside again, because they know the guy on the inside is allowed to ram them off the track by not braking.

Lewis is entitled but he did not do it as in turn across Max … which was wise as they would be having a fight on the run off as the cars were untangled