F/C stood on ball

[Foxholer]

My point is as posed by @Duncan - neither I nor my F/C know where the ball is before I stand on it. We can assume I've moved it (downwards) but how much we really don't know. Not sure I see how my F/C can somehow pick his ball up and replace it as much of the time he will replace the ball on top of grass in which it was probably buried to an extent. Seems to be too much uncertainty around original position and too much potential advantage to be gained from a replace in this instance.

I mention this as on Sunday I stood on my own ball deep in the long rough to the side of our first (after tee shot). It was quite obvious to me that by my action I must had pressed the ball deeper into the undergrowth - but I felt I couldn't claim any relief from my action as I didn't know original exact position of my ball as I didn;t sdee it before I stood on it, and I didn't know for certain that I'd pressed it deeper down into the clag. So mega hack out. Dropped a shot

I trust that you realise that if a player stands on his on ball - and moves it - it's not a 'relief' situation, but a penalty (1 shot) one, while if a player stands on a F/C's ball, there's no penalty (to either) for that.

 

[Colin L]

I mention this as on Sunday I stood on my own ball deep in the long rough to the side of our first (after tee shot). It was quite obvious to me that by my action I must had pressed the ball deeper into the undergrowth - but I felt I couldn't claim any relief from my action as I didn't know original exact position of my ball as I didn;t sdee it before I stood on it, and I didn't know for certain that I'd pressed it deeper down into the clag. So mega hack out. Dropped a shot

If you were looking to claim relief, you are misunderstanding something! You stood on your own ball - that's a penalty stroke- and you did not replace the ball - that's another penalty stroke. Do you feel relieved?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you were looking to claim relief, you are misunderstanding something! You stood on your own ball - that's a penalty stroke- and you did not replace the ball - that's another penalty stroke. Do you feel relieved?

My ball was 'invisible' in the long grass and I get penalised for standing on my ball when I don't know it's there - and I crunch it deeper into the clag? That's a bit rough. Of course I could have not admitted to standing on my ball and just got on with it

 

[Colin L]

My ball was 'invisible' in the long grass and I get penalised for standing on my ball when I don't know it's there - and I crunch it deeper into the clag? That's a bit rough. Of course I could have not admitted to standing on my ball and just got on with it

Yes, and yes.

Yes - invisible or not, you are penalised for moving it, and it is taken that standing on a ball is normally bound to move it at least vertically. Your only consolation is that you replace it and don't have to play from deeper in the clag.

And yes, you could just not let on that it had happened and save yourself a penalty stroke. That's a matter of integrity.

 

[duncan mackie]

@Duncan. Would you really not penalise the breach? I know it's a harsh penalty, especially given that the place to place it wasn't absolutely certain and a drop is pretty 'fair' - just wrong! - but is there any alternative when the Rules say MUST be placed?

definitely not what I am saying

I'm saying that if a player isn't absolutely certain where to replace it, and certain of the lie such that they can re-create it, then they drop it. In most cases where someone steps on a ball this will apply because the ball clearly isn't in an obvious lie!

In this particlar case the player has had a chance to observe his lie and may feel that he can replace the ball exactly as it was before being stepped on - in which case it should be replaced by placing. However, if it comes down to 'I know roughtly how it was lying and about where, it should probably be dropped.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

definitely not what I am saying

I'm saying that if a player isn't absolutely certain where to replace it, and certain of the lie such that they can re-create it, then they drop it. In most cases where someone steps on a ball this will apply because the ball clearly isn't in an obvious lie!

In this particlar case the player has had a chance to observe his lie and may feel that he can replace the ball exactly as it was before being stepped on - in which case it should be replaced by placing. However, if it comes down to 'I know roughtly how it was lying and about where, it should probably be dropped.

Actually in all of this I know that I am penalised if I stand on my ball - but I didn't realise I could replace it to where I think it might have been. The unscrupulous could seek to gain an advantage from this. And I do understandf about me standing on and moving a F/Cs ball. Just checking.

 

[Foxholer]

definitely not what I am saying

I'm saying that if a player isn't absolutely certain where to replace it, and certain of the lie such that they can re-create it, then they drop it. In most cases where someone steps on a ball this will apply because the ball clearly isn't in an obvious lie!

In this particlar case the player has had a chance to observe his lie and may feel that he can replace the ball exactly as it was before being stepped on - in which case it should be replaced by placing. However, if it comes down to 'I know roughtly how it was lying and about where, it should probably be dropped.

In the general case.
I agree. I think that (Dropping) is actually the proper thing to do. But, as far as I can see,the Rules don't allow it - which is a bit of a surprise as it as I would have thought the situation would have been encountered before.

In this particular case.
Had the incident been brought to your attention before the comp closed, but after they'd signed cards (and perhaps before too), how would you have ruled?

 

[duncan mackie]

In this particular case.
Had the incident been brought to your attention before the comp closed, but after they'd signed cards (and perhaps before too), how would you have ruled?

I would have asked the player what happened and focused on the issue highlighted in my post -

the player has had a chance to observe his lie and may feel that he can replace the ball exactly as it was before being stepped on - in which case it should be replaced by placing. However, if it comes down to 'I know roughtly how it was lying and about where, it should probably be dropped.

ie if the player states that he saw the ball wasn't lying on the top of the grass, but wasn't sure how far down it was really sitting before it was stepped on, so he dropped it as near as possible to where he thought it had been I would probably have said "fine".

obviously including the FC as well, even though in this case the facts aren't in dispute.

contrast this situation to one in which a players ball is in a divot on the fairway with the player looking at it and a dog picks it out; player claims that he didn't know exactly where, to the mm, the ball was in the divot to he dropped the ball (and missed the divot ) Here, there's no grass stems involved, no 3d height issues and the divot will give great perspective (framing) of the balls position such that most people will be able to replace it within mm on even a cursory glance at it before it was moved (given the right incentive!)