England vs Italy

[Piece]

Possession is king at international level. These players aren't comfortable with the ball, don't pass well enough under pressure and can't find space easily enough. Technically, their control is poor compared to others, therefore it makes it almost impossible to retain the ball.

We can talk about formations, pace, etc until the cows come home, but if you cant retain possession and move it about quickly, then we will continue to be dead in the water.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

England didn't lose the game they drew it. They lost on penalties. If you want to complain moan about why Ashley Young took one and why Cole hit his penalty the same as the Champions League final

Pens are a very cruel way to lose a game and I'd never have a pop at a player or missing one, but last nights performance was all about 0-0 and hopefully win on pens which backfired.

That was the game plan set up by the manager and he failed to change his game plan when everybody could see it wasn't working. I don't expect them to take the game to them gung ho style but from quality professional footballers we have i expect them to at least compete and try to win the match.

You can't say that performance was good enough to qualify/ win the match.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Have said it before Hodgson is great at getting the best out of mediocre teams and England are mediocrity personified. We do have the components of a good young side and he will get the best out of the players available.

We did as well as we could given the length of time Hodgson had to prepare his side and the resources he had. I think we need to get the grass roots right and play more 5 v5 and 7v7 small sided games to get skills inset and honed at an early age.

As for unbiased commentary, who can forget Barry Davies at the Olympic hockey when we beat the Germans for the medal. As Britain scored....

"where was the German defence, and quite frankly who cares"

 

[Liverbirdie]

Possession is king at international level. These players aren't comfortable with the ball, don't pass well enough under pressure and can't find space easily enough. Technically, their control is poor compared to others, therefore it makes it almost impossible to retain the ball.

We can talk about formations, pace, etc until the cows come home, but if you cant retain possession and move it about quickly, then we will continue to be dead in the water.

Correct, to an extent, but if you don't roll it out to the full backs or centre halves, straight away you are going with the percentage play of giving the ball away, by Joe Hart lumping it long. I think the manger was happy with this.

Did they change it at half time, full time, extra time - no. Hodgson is happy to play this way. Against the teams who are scared of England,they will be allowed to play more football as the other team will back off. Not the big teams though.

That is where Roys lack of ambition shows through.

Rooney should not have been kept on last night, Welbeck should have been, possibly paired with Caroll or Defoe, or as part of a diamond. Parker and Gerrard played square of each other virtually the whole tournament.

The back four and keeper were correct, but further forward we were poor, due to the lack of keeping possession or sliding passes through.

We could have had the ox, Gerrard, Parker (or Jones) as a 3 with Carroll (central) and Theo and Welbeck either side of him.

Alternatively, Parker DM, Gerrard DM, Ox, Welbeck and Theo in behind Carroll.

You could have also had a 3-5-2/5-3-2.

A few other options also, but the point was there were various tactical as well as personnel changes available. Roy decided to change the personnel, but not the shape, which was criminal.

 

[smange]

So England lose on penalties......

Where the hell was the fella from the Mars Bar ads when you need him

 

[Hooper]

Until we start producing footballers instead of athletes that are built like running baks we will always struggle. Anybody who has watched any great players will notice they make the hard things look simple. England produces players that make the easy look difficult. The balance and effortless way the foreigners play puts our boys to shame. No offense to Ukraine but even they looked more comfortable with the ball than us. As previous post says, we can talk until the cows come how about last night. We have to wake up and admit we are just not good enough to compete with the way the game is progressing.

 

[AuburnWarrior]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the FA need to COMPLETELY re-think their attitude to the England team. We're still operating on a model from the 50s/60s and it needs to change.
Football back then was like cricket is now - unless you played for England you didn't make decent money. The PL players of today don't need to play for their respective countries to make good money so where's the incentive? In order for England to be competitive you need hungry players. I suggest the following:

Alex Ferguson is on record as saying that the CL is the pinnacle of any footballers career. He's probably right. In terms of revenue, etc it's arguable that it is bigger than the European Championships. So, I propose that any PL footballer who is involved in a CL campaign cannot represent England at any time.
David Moyes of Everton is on record as saying that it's club first and country second. OK, Everton are an OK PL side. If Moyes is saying this then how many other managers are saying the exact same thing to their charges? I propose that any PL player cannot play for England at any time.
These are fairly radical proposals. I've basically said that the best players in England cannot represent England.
BUT...
What it would mean is that the players of the Championship who are knocking on the door of the Premiership and who earn a fraction of what a PL players earns would be hungry and determined to do well for England. It would be their chance to show the world what they can do and, hopefully, show the PL clubs that they can cut it at the highest level.
The PL stars may state in press conferences that they are proud and honoured to play for England but actions speak louder than words and, apart from Beckham, I can't think of an England player in the last 12 years that's shown any sort of emotion whilst on the pitch. Where are our Terry Butchers, our Gazzas, our Paul Inces??? After a hard PL/CL season, playing for England represents a major inconvenience to these top stars and it shows!
One incident last night summed it all up for me. Ashley Young received the ball wide on the left some 20 yards from the Italian right back. He ran forwards 5 yards and passed it inside - to no-one! Now, can you imagine Ryan Giggs doing that? No! He'd had got that ball and ran at the right back. He'd have put the right back under pressure. He'd have either skinned him and been through on goal/able to put a cross in or the right back would have had to foul Giggs and given away a free kick in a dangerous area. Now, does Ashley Young do similar things whilst playing for Man U? Does he get the ball and knock it inside or does he run at defenders?
We were poor last night but is anyone really surprised? I wasn't.
I'm not arrogant enough to think that England should win every game and win every championship but what I do want is a group of players who fully realise and fully understand what it means to 'play for England'. I want to see them trying their absolute hardest, not simply going through the motions. Last night had the air of a final group game where both teams had qualified. Not good enough.
The saddest thing is that nothing will be done and, in two years time, we'll be posting the same things having limped out of the World Cup.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Have said it before Hodgson is great at getting the best out of mediocre teams and England are mediocrity personified. We do have the components of a good young side and he will get the best out of the players available.

We did as well as we could given the length of time Hodgson had to prepare his side and the resources he had. I think we need to get the grass roots right and play more 5 v5 and 7v7 small sided games to get skills inset and honed at an early age.

You can't say he got the best out of the side given those performances, a draw against a very poor France side who were atrocious throughout, and 2 very lucky wins against the Swedes and Ukraine.

It looked to me that he got his ideas across to the players very very well, its just a shame they were very negative.

With regards to getting grass roots right, that's gonna take at least another 15yrs before anything comes out of that. What do we do in the meantime?

 

[Tiger]

You can't say he got the best out of the side given those performances, a draw against a very poor France side who were atrocious throughout, and 2 very lucky wins against the Swedes and Ukraine.

It looked to me that he got his ideas across to the players very very well, its just a shame they were very negative.

With regards to getting grass roots right, that's gonna take at least another 15yrs before anything comes out of that. What do we do in the meantime?

Stuart you and I are never going to agree on this. Personally I think you are mad if you believe that the reason we got knocked out was down to the manager and his tactics.

In normal time Hodgson's record is played 6 W4 D2. The kind of approach you are talking about IMO wouldn't work. The Italians didn't score yesterday. You talk about our lack of penetration Gerrard and Parker were shattered after 60 mins. You talk about the Italians closing down, it's easier when the opposition have no composure on the ball. We had three quality chances last night: Johnson, Rooney diving header, Roomey overhead kick.

Hodgson didn't play for penalties from the start. He played to keep it tight and to try and nick a goal. It was only when the team were out on their feet that we started defending resolutely.

Development will take 15 years. In the meantime lower your expectations. For my money your issue with Hodgson stems from his time in charge if your beloved Reds. For my money he has the makings of being a astute and pragmatic England manager

 

[Deleted member 1740]

T

Stuart you and I are never going to agree on this. Personally I think you are mad if you believe that the reason we got knocked out was down to the manager and his tactics.

In normal time Hodgson's record is played 6 W4 D2. The kind of approach you are talking about IMO wouldn't work. The Italians didn't score yesterday. You talk about our lack of penetration Gerrard and Parker were shattered after 60 mins. You talk about the Italians closing down, it's easier when the opposition have no composure on the ball. We had three quality chances last night: Johnson, Rooney diving header, Roomey overhead kick.

Hodgson didn't play for penalties from the start. He played to keep it tight and to try and nick a goal. It was only when the team were out on their feet that we started defending resolutely.

Development will take 15 years. In the meantime lower your expectations. For my money your issue with Hodgson stems from his time in charge if your beloved Reds. For my money he has the makings of being a astute and pragmatic England manager

I've based my opinions on what I've seen over the last four games, and I seriously believe he played for pens.

After 20 mins they were on the back foot and offered nothing in the attacking 3rd.
Those tactics never ever changed throughout that competition, unlike our rivals who have changed when needed too. You've got to have some flexibility within your tactics/set up to be successful.

As for lowering expectations, they can't get any lower fella.

 

[Tiger]

T

I've based my opinions on what I've seen over the last four games, and I seriously believe he played for pens.

After 20 mins they were on the back foot and offered nothing in the attacking 3rd.
Those tactics never ever changed throughout that competition, unlike our rivals who have changed when needed too. You've got to have some flexibility within your tactics/set up to be successful.

As for lowering expectations, they can't get any lower fella.

He played for pens when he realised they were dead on their feet. My point is that with the conditioning of the players he had and the quality (or lack of it in the squad) what else could he have done. If we had gone at the Italians we would probably have lost in normal / extra time. I'm sure we would have been more attacking had the Italians scored , but they didn't.

When he needed to change it against Sweden he did and we came back from 2-1 down to win the game

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Farcical comments on here.
That score line could easily have been 3-2 for either side and the 'experts' would be claiming what a great game it was.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Farcical comments on here.
That score line could easily have been 3-2 for either side and the 'experts' would be claiming what a great game it was.

If your talking good chances created, more like 6-2 to Italy.

 

[Dodger]

My,been out the country for a while and it appears ingerlnd are oot.

Pleasing news.:cheers:

 

[FairwayDodger]

I propose that any PL footballer who is involved in a CL campaign cannot represent England at any time.

<snip>

I propose that any PL player cannot play for England at any time.
These are fairly radical proposals. I've basically said that the best players in England cannot represent England.
BUT...
What it would mean is that the players of the Championship who are knocking on the door of the Premiership and who earn a fraction of what a PL players earns would be hungry and determined to do well for England. It would be their chance to show the world what they can do and, hopefully, show the PL clubs that they can cut it at the highest level.

AW - this is either genius or complete insanity and I can't quite work out which.

Plus the championship players have the added incentive of knowing if they win their dream move to the premiership they never have to play for England again!

No idea what would happen but I'd like to see it. Of course, I don't actually care if England never win another game!

 

[Tiger]

So the Germans playing a more attacking formation also struggle to break down the Italians and concede two crucial goals in the process. Interesting...

 

[Deleted member 1740]

So the Germans playing a more attacking formation also struggle to break down the Italians and concede two crucial goals in the process. Interesting...

Attack as much as you like, unless you stop the supply (Pirlo) theres a very good chance they'll hurt you and that's what England and Germany never done.

You've said in previous posts in this thread that Parker AND Gerrard where tired after 60mins chasing the ball (poor tactics)yet you still won't admit Roy got it wrong.

If it was any other manager in charge playing the way he did everybody would be criticising them. Fact

 

[Tiger]

Attack as much as you like, unless you stop the supply (Pirlo) theres a very good chance they'll hurt you and that's what England and Germany never done.

You've said in previous posts in this thread that Parker AND Gerrard where tired after 60mins chasing the ball (poor tactics)yet you still won't admit Roy got it wrong.

If it was any other manager in charge playing the way he did everybody would be criticising them. Fact

They tried to shut down Pirlo, they changed their formation and still failed. The only reason you hate Hodgson is because you are a Liverpool fan

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I have thought for a long time that England would do better by chosing Championship League [or whatever it is called this week, old division 2] players.

 

[Marshy77]

Attack as much as you like, unless you stop the supply (Pirlo) theres a very good chance they'll hurt you and that's what England and Germany never done.

You've said in previous posts in this thread that Parker AND Gerrard where tired after 60mins chasing the ball (poor tactics)yet you still won't admit Roy got it wrong.

If it was any other manager in charge playing the way he did everybody would be criticising them. Fact

It wasn't just Pirlo though last night, they were scared stiff of Balotelli and got far too tight, both goals were defensive errors and Germany in the end got punished for playing too attacking. De Rossi was pulling the strings too like he has in most of the matches and Montolivo doing the work they have a hard working class midfield that possibly on Spain can match.