England vs Italy

[bobmac]

Sorry Bob gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. They want to win but unfortunately for them they just aren't good enough

Don't be sorry.
I know nothing about football and care about it even less.
What I do know is, paying someone who isn't good enough vasts amount of money isn't going to make them want to get better.

Billy Connolly had it right when he said
"Play with the ball for a while and when you get bored, give it to someone you know":clap:

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Stu in "bashing Woy" post shocker!

No bashing here fella, a few players have took fair bit of stick and the managers mistakes are being highlighted.




I still think he's a fraud of a manager though!

 

[Fish]

It's no wonder Cole was knackered for his penalty with all the defending he had to do but Young had no excuse as he didn't perform throughout the tournament.

Roy showed his tactical weakness in not taking either Milner, Young or both of them off who couldn't make the byline and service what strikers we had.

He should have changed the shape.

As soon as he took Scotty Parker off the Italians ran the show from the midfield. Even if Parker was injured, he would have still given 110% but with the wingers not stretching the game, Italy dominated the midfield.

Chamberlain should have been on for the whole of the extra time with Carroll at the expense of Rooney so at least their would be some hunger and fitness on show.

Didn't have huge expectations but I think the back 5 now know how Custer felt :0

Hart 9/10: Cole 9/10: Johnson 8/10: Terry 9/10: Lescott 8/10: Gerrard 9/10: Milner 4/10: Parker 9/10: Young 3/10: Walcott 7/10: O-Chamberlain 8/10: Carroll 7/1: Rooney 5/10: Welbeck 8/10: Henderson 6/10

​

 

[Liverbirdie]

After 5 minutes it summed up the change in both countries attitude,with regards to defending. Years ago an Italian team would have invited you on, "catenaccio" if you will, won the ball in their own half then slowly built up an attack from there in a slow pace until the final third were they up the tempo.

The English team would have hunted you down for the ball in YOUR half.

I saw Italians huting in packs 10 yards outside our box when England had the ball, forcing England (as we will always take the easy option) into knocking it long. England sat back and waited for Italy to get to the edge of the England box, as they sat so deep, most of Rooney and Welbeck's closing down was in the centre circle.

At this point for 30 minutes the match could have gone either way, as both sides had chances, but Italy had the most.

For the rest of the game it went to Hodgson's default position, stay in position, defend deep, give your opponents respect (too much). When you have the ball, knock it long (ideally from the keeper), don't throw it out to the centre halfs or full backs.

Welbeck didn't hold the ball up well enough, Rooney is nowhere near fitness/sharpness. Gerrard didn't move over the half way line after his cramp. Milner did nothing, Young gave the ball away within 3 seconds of getting it each time.

The whole team needed to take the gamble and move up the pitch 30 yards, at least trying to pass it to feet. OK, Balotelli's pace may have suckered us, but it was when we were deep anyway, due to Pirlo having all day.

 

[GreiginFife]

Not sure you've seen much of Scotland - that sounds like most games, certainly every time we're up against one of the "major" nations. It's called realism.

Is the correct answer FD. We have become so adept at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory it's a fine art (most recently the last two qualifying campaigns where we have put ourselves in a position of needing to win the last game but always fall short) we know this is the case and realistically reflect this.

On the England game, agree with many on here that expectation was low so to get as far as they did was as good as it got. Italy bossed the game but with two defensive teams it was never going to be the cracker that the BBC had spent 4 days building up as one.

On the England team, Roy (if he is to remain in charge - the FA are a fickle bunch and now that 'Arry's compo issue is miraculously resolved... see where I'm going?) must now rebuild and bring youth forward to learn and gain experience.
I agree to players being picked on reputation rather than ability (Young, Henderson to name but two, big price tags but that's all form what I can see). This needs to stop if they are to have a chance going forward.

On media bias, it will always happen, whether it's right or wrong is morally subjective but it WILL happen when you have people who love their country allowed to have captive audience (on TV or radio) to air their view.

A few have asked this but I can't see any answers given; How can an athlete and professional like Rooney be unfit/not sharp? He hasn't been injured, playing in about as many games as the rest of the squad up to the end of the season, only missed two games of the tournament through suspension, so how does missing two games without an injury suddenly make him unfit/not sharp?

 

[Tiger]

Everyone keeps saying Hodgson should have been more attacking etc etc. not playing the Ox is a wise move. Protect the young man from games like that. A lot of the people clearly watched the ball and didn't watch the game. Playing counter attacking football involves lots of sprints by strikers off the ball to get into position. I can tell you that is knackering!!! You can't then expect them to mark Pirlo as well.

For all the criticism being hurled at the team they kept a clean sheet and drew 0-0. The pundits in the Beeb drooling over Pirlo failed to really highlight two things:

1) he doesn't really defend the other two centre miss do it for him
2) England were outnumbered in midfield 3v2 which is why he haddock much space

If Hodgson had more time then maybe he'd have been able to devise a plan B. In terms of tactics the most sensible option would have been to drop Rooney, play Welbeck/Carroll up top on their own. Bring Milner inside to mark Pirlo out of the game with Walcott and Young/Ix on the flanks.

But he had to stick with the formation as the team were unbeaten and Rooney scored against Ukraine. AND if Rooney had timed his jump for the overhead kick a fraction later it would have been 1-0 in the last minute.

If we'd been dispatched 3/4-0 then fair enough but we werent. Milner's job is to defend we don't have the quality to have two out and out wingers. Yes I agree Young had a bad tournament but before the Euro's he was our form player. He just needs confidence.

Loads of people on here saying we would finish bottom of the group before the Euros. They criticised the friendly results as being unconvincing. We then won the group which wasn't good enough and now we've lost on penalties they are overpaid pre madonnas.

Sorry but this is all a of crock ....

Given the available players, the injuries we suffered just before the tournament and the late appointment of Hodgson I think they did remarkably well.

 

[Aztecs27]

Everyone keeps saying Hodgson should have been more attacking etc etc. not playing the Ox is a wise move. Protect the young man from games like that. A lot of the people clearly watched the ball and didn't watch the game. Playing counter attacking football involves lots of sprints by strikers off the ball to get into position. I can tell you that is knackering!!! You can't then expect them to mark Pirlo as well.

For all the criticism being hurled at the team they kept a clean sheet and drew 0-0. The pundits in the Beeb drooling over Pirlo failed to really highlight two things:

1) he doesn't really defend the other two centre miss do it for him
2) England were outnumbered in midfield 3v2 which is why he haddock much space

If Hodgson had more time then maybe he'd have been able to devise a plan B. In terms of tactics the most sensible option would have been to drop Rooney, play Welbeck/Carroll up top on their own. Bring Milner inside to mark Pirlo out of the game with Walcott and Young/Ix on the flanks.

But he had to stick with the formation as the team were unbeaten and Rooney scored against Ukraine. AND if Rooney had timed his jump for the overhead kick a fraction later it would have been 1-0 in the last minute.

If we'd been dispatched 3/4-0 then fair enough but we werent. Milner's job is to defend we don't have the quality to have two out and out wingers. Yes I agree Young had a bad tournament but before the Euro's he was our form player. He just needs confidence.

Loads of people on here saying we would finish bottom of the group before the Euros. They criticised the friendly results as being unconvincing. We then won the group which wasn't good enough and now we've lost on penalties they are overpaid pre madonnas.

Sorry but this is all a of crock ....

Given the available players, the injuries we suffered just before the tournament and the late appointment of Hodgson I think they did remarkably well.

QED.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Everyone keeps saying Hodgson should have been more attacking etc etc. not playing the Ox is a wise move. Protect the young man from games like that. A lot of the people clearly watched the ball and didn't watch the game. Playing counter attacking football involves lots of sprints by strikers off the ball to get into position. I can tell you that is knackering!!! You can't then expect them to mark Pirlo as well.

For all the criticism being hurled at the team they kept a clean sheet and drew 0-0. The pundits in the Beeb drooling over Pirlo failed to really highlight two things:

1) he doesn't really defend the other two centre miss do it for him
2) England were outnumbered in midfield 3v2 which is why he haddock much space

If Hodgson had more time then maybe he'd have been able to devise a plan B. In terms of tactics the most sensible option would have been to drop Rooney, play Welbeck/Carroll up top on their own. Bring Milner inside to mark Pirlo out of the game with Walcott and Young/Ix on the flanks.

But he had to stick with the formation as the team were unbeaten and Rooney scored against Ukraine. AND if Rooney had timed his jump for the overhead kick a fraction later it would have been 1-0 in the last minute.

If we'd been dispatched 3/4-0 then fair enough but we werent. Milner's job is to defend we don't have the quality to have two out and out wingers. Yes I agree Young had a bad tournament but before the Euro's he was our form player. He just needs confidence.

Loads of people on here saying we would finish bottom of the group before the Euros. They criticised the friendly results as being unconvincing. We then won the group which wasn't good enough and now we've lost on penalties they are overpaid pre madonnas.

Sorry but this is all a of crock ....

Given the available players, the injuries we suffered just before the tournament and the late appointment of Hodgson I think they did remarkably well.

How much time does he need to devise a plan b or c?

The tactics were wrong and he didn't adapt them during the game, his subtitutions were predictable and like for like.

Italy had the extra man in the centre of the park who was controlling the game and Roy didn't adapt his tactics to suit. We then had 2 men doing the work of 3, that for me is not good enough.

 

[Robobum]

.......
The tactics were wrong and he didn't adapt them during the game, his subtitutions were predictable and like for like.

.......

And how would you have won the game then?

 

[Tiger]

And how would you have won the game then?

An excellent question

 

[Fish]

And how would you have won the game then?

I'd have started by getting Young off who contributed zero and I still can't fathom how he not only played in every game but finished every game also. That would have been closely followed by Milner who also contributed close to nothing!

Rooney should have been taken off mid 2nd half, he was flagging and giving too much possession away by having to come too deep to get the ball, why, because Young and Milner couldn't keep possession or pass the ball!

Its almost like we settled for penalties halfway through the 2nd half rather than changing the shape or injecting some pace into the game, after-all, we had it on the bench but Roy didn't use it.

 

[FairwayDodger]

And how would you have won the game then?

Roy's biggest mistake was that he was in charge of the England team. If it were me, I'd have been managing Spain or Germany that should do the trick. :thup:

 

[Robobum]

I'd have started by getting Young off who contributed zero and I still can't fathom how he not only played in every game but finished every game also. That would have been closely followed by Milner who also contributed close to nothing!

Rooney should have been taken off mid 2nd half, he was flagging and giving too much possession away by having to come too deep to get the ball, why, because Young and Milner couldn't keep possession or pass the ball!

Its almost like we settled for penalties halfway through the 2nd half rather than changing the shape or injecting some pace into the game, after-all, we had it on the bench but Roy didn't use it.

So that's 3 players off......pace injection?? Presume you mean Theo and Chamberlain?? And how will they change the shape??

 

[Deleted member 1740]

And how would you have won the game then?

I would've started with Jones in the middle with Parker, pushed Gerrard a bit further forward behind Carroll and played Chamberlain and Walcott giving us width and pace when attacking and getting them to tuck in when defending.

With that your man for man in the middle and you restrict Pirlo from having such an affect and control of the game. Having control in the midfield is a must at this level.

With Roys starting 11 yesterday he could've easily swapped any 4 players after half time,and although he made substitutions the tactics never changed. If plan A doesn't work then he must have a plan B considering he had 10 outfield subs to choose from.

Substitutions are luck if they work out but adapting your tactics throughout the game is skill.

Hodgson and his merry men were happy for this game to go to pens and they got what they deserved.

 

[Robobum]

I would've started with Jones in the middle with Parker, pushed Gerrard a bit further forward behind Carroll and played Chamberlain and Walcott giving us width and pace when attacking and getting them to tuck in when defending.

.........

You've just created two perfect widemen that do good jobs in both directions. Neither of them have shown that previously (esp Theo) so why the presumption that they will have done it this time?? Ox may prove to be different but Arsene hasn't currently got him playing for his defensive qualities.

Would 2 attacking widemen got us to within a penalty kick of the semi final?? That's a whole new debate right there

For me, there was obvious logic in pretty much everything that Roy planned and asked the players to do. Only the perseverance with Young was baffling, the lad was horrifically out of form and should have been given a break.

 

[louise_a]

A bit late to post on this thread, but my internet has been playing up all weekend.
I seemed to me that we were playing for penalties, we played 2 banks of 4 behind the ball and invited Italy to come at us. In contrast when England did have the ball, not very often in fairness, Italy closed us down quickly, often with 2 or 3 players on the man with the ball.
Later on in the game we just resoted to hoofball to Carroll, which got us nowhere.
So were we unlucky to lose on penalties, no, we were lucky not to get bewat in 90 minutes.

 

[Tiger]

You've just created two perfect widemen that do good jobs in both directions. Neither of them have shown that previously (esp Theo) so why the presumption that they will have done it this time?? Ox may prove to be different but Arsene hasn't currently got him playing for his defensive qualities.

Would 2 attacking widemen got us to within a penalty kick of the semi final?? That's a whole new debate right there

For me, there was obvious logic in pretty much everything that Roy planned and asked the players to do. Only the perseverance with Young was baffling, the lad was horrifically out of form and should have been given a break.

I think with the squad he had he made the right call. We're just not good enough in possession to attack teams right now.

 

[Snelly]

I would have played 5-3-2

Hart

Cole, Terry, Jagielka, Lescott, Richards (I know he wasn't there yes)

Parker, Gerrard, Adam Johnson (Man C connection and yes I know he wasn't there either)

Rooney and Walcott

Ox, Dafoe and Jones as high impact subs.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

I think with the squad he had he made the right call. We're just not good enough in possession to attack teams right now.

I don't agree with this, all of a sudden these footballers who play in Europe's elite competition and usually in or around the quarters/semis every season have ecome poor players. There players are a lot better than what we are giving them credit for.

I wasn't suggesting to play with wingers but when you've got players of Walcott and Chamberlain pace then you must use them to give you a chance of creating/scoring.

Like I've said previously, Roys tactics were wrong from the start of this game and he had numerous chances to change them but he never and that cost them the chance of winning the game in normal time.

Playing for pens is a very dangerous game and last night was the reward for playing this way.

 

[Tiger]

Stuart I doubt we will ever agree on this but this is my perception of the squad. Club football and international football are different beasts. I think if they were in this tournament Barcelona or Real Madrid would probably win it.

1. At club level you play with the same players week in, week out and the coach has the chance to impress themselves on you and mould you into a style of play.
2. If the coach then realises there is a missing ingredient they go out and buy that player.
3. The missing link for England is a creative midfielder that can control the game at club level (Utd brought back Scholes, City = Silva, Chelsea = Mata, Spurs = Modric, Arsenal was Fabregas, would be Wilshere. Notice how none of these players is available to Roy.

We've got the engine room but no craft. It's all well and good playing Walcott and Ox but neither can defend and to be fair are both better suited to a 4-3-3 formation which you can only play if the midfield three can keep the ball.

Parker is great at breaking up play but not at distributing the ball. Milner wins the ball for City then gives it to Silva to do the damage. Lampard lives a sideways pass, Gerrard loves a Hollywood crossfield ball. Lescott looks uncomfortable in possession as does Terry so whenever it goes back to them it invariable ends up with Hart and HOOF!

To play the way you want us to play you need a centre back pairing of Cahill and a fully fit Rio Ferdinand, a fit Wilshere, a young again Scholes, Stevie G circa 2006, Wayne Rooney 2004.

England didn't lose the game they drew it. They lost on penalties. If you want to complain moan about why Ashley Young took one and why Cole hit his penalty the same as the Champions League final