EG App

[jim8flog]

A few questions for help for our handicap sec.

If a player registers for a GP score but does not submit the score what does EG do about it?
If they submit the score but is never verified by the marker what happens?

Is there anyway for secs to see some sort of report for the above for all such 'cards' from one club?

 

[Swango1980]

A few questions for help for our handicap sec.

If a player registers for a GP score but does not submit the score what does EG do about it?
If they submit the score but is never verified by the marker what happens?

Is there anyway for secs to see some sort of report for the above for all such 'cards' from one club?

What does club V1 do about it? Nothing. It is up to the club to go to the "Unsatisfied Score Intents" report and look for those who have not submitted a score (presuming they didn't cancel that intent beforehand). The club then need to chase the player, before either getting the score or deciding if a penalty score is required, and what it should be.

If their score is never verified by a marker, I believe it simply appears as an unsatisfied score intent, so no different to it not being handed in at all. No way for the handicap sec to know, without contacting the player (unless they've changed it in last few weeks)

General Play rounds are all a bit of a joke now anyway, if not carefully monitored by the club. In the 3 weeks I have left the club, and therefore obviously stepped down as handicap sec, I see there are 19 No Returns from members at that club in that time. I doubt they'll be chased, but if they are it is a right pain in the neck for the person now in charge. On the flip side, you have non-members (who did not rejoin at start of month) still submitting general play rounds through MyEG, as the club have not deleted them from their system.

 

[Swango1980]

I'd like to see some of the following changes, of the top of my head:

1. Once a player has pre-registered, this cannot be cancelled. To cancel, they need to contact the club handicap sec. This way, if they've a habit of cancelling regularly (such as mid round), the handicap sec will see a pattern
2. When pre-registering, the player must put in their marker, as this will ensure their marker is on the App and can verify score. If they cannot name their marker at pre-registration, then pre-registration cannot be complete and round not Acceptable. This would help solve issues of players actually entering score, but verification never happening because they didn't realise marker had to be on app.
3. If a player No Returns, then a marker is put against their handicap. Perhaps it is temporarily suspended, or marked to be non-competition. This would help cure "forgetfulness". A few notification reminders as well if required.
4. If a player submits score, but not verified, then no temporary suspension of handicap or anything, but notifications for them to get their marker to verify, and a clear indication for club committee that the score has not been verified, rather than not-returned at all.

I think things like this would really help general play rounds, and really help club committees. I'm sure there will be plenty of other things that could be done. I don't agree with the Scottish Golf platform though, which apparently gives automatic penalty scores to No Returns. Penalty scores that will often be inappropriate given the situation of the No Return, and require a human to decide the appropriate penalty.

 

[2blue]

I'd like to see some of the following changes, of the top of my head:

1. Once a player has pre-registered, this cannot be cancelled. To cancel, they need to contact the club handicap sec. This way, if they've a habit of cancelling regularly (such as mid round), the handicap sec will see a pattern
2. When pre-registering, the player must put in their marker, as this will ensure their marker is on the App and can verify score. If they cannot name their marker at pre-registration, then pre-registration cannot be complete and round not Acceptable. This would help solve issues of players actually entering score, but verification never happening because they didn't realise marker had to be on app.
3. If a player No Returns, then a marker is put against their handicap. Perhaps it is temporarily suspended, or marked to be non-competition. This would help cure "forgetfulness". A few notification reminders as well if required.
4. If a player submits score, but not verified, then no temporary suspension of handicap or anything, but notifications for them to get their marker to verify, and a clear indication for club committee that the score has not been verified, rather than not-returned at all.

I think things like this would really help general play rounds, and really help club committees. I'm sure there will be plenty of other things that could be done. I don't agree with the Scottish Golf platform though, which apparently gives automatic penalty scores to No Returns. Penalty scores that will often be inappropriate given the situation of the No Return, and require a human to decide the appropriate penalty.

We'll be right behind these suggestions..... the jobs become a real 'pigs-ear' & we have a team of 5 of us.

 

[wjemather]

A few questions for help for our handicap sec.

If a player registers for a GP score but does not submit the score what does EG do about it?
If they submit the score but is never verified by the marker what happens?

Is there anyway for secs to see some sort of report for the above for all such 'cards' from one club?

Your handicap committee should be monitoring unreturned scores through the WHS Platform, where there is a report titled "unsatisfied score intents". Through this report, the individual registrations can be selected to show any further details, e.g. awaiting score input, awaiting marker verification, etc. (it's obvious which intents are through MyEG as this detail isn't available for ISV registrations) The committee should then follow up with the player.

 

[wjemather]

I'd like to see some of the following changes, of the top of my head:

1. Once a player has pre-registered, this cannot be cancelled. To cancel, they need to contact the club handicap sec. This way, if they've a habit of cancelling regularly (such as mid round), the handicap sec will see a pattern
2. When pre-registering, the player must put in their marker, as this will ensure their marker is on the App and can verify score. If they cannot name their marker at pre-registration, then pre-registration cannot be complete and round not Acceptable. This would help solve issues of players actually entering score, but verification never happening because they didn't realise marker had to be on app.
3. If a player No Returns, then a marker is put against their handicap. Perhaps it is temporarily suspended, or marked to be non-competition. This would help cure "forgetfulness". A few notification reminders as well if required.
4. If a player submits score, but not verified, then no temporary suspension of handicap or anything, but notifications for them to get their marker to verify, and a clear indication for club committee that the score has not been verified, rather than not-returned at all.

I think things like this would really help general play rounds, and really help club committees. I'm sure there will be plenty of other things that could be done. I don't agree with the Scottish Golf platform though, which apparently gives automatic penalty scores to No Returns. Penalty scores that will often be inappropriate given the situation of the No Return, and require a human to decide the appropriate penalty.

Your suggestions wouldn't really help and 3 is just grossly disproportionate. In reality, basic player education is the only thing that is required. Many committees have done very little in this regard, so only have themselves to blame for most of their increased workload.

 

[Swango1980]

Your suggestions wouldn't really help and 3 is just grossly disproportionate. In reality, basic player education is the only thing that is required. Many committees have done very little in this regard, so only have themselves to blame for most of their increased workload.

I bet a lot of it would help. A lot of Committee members at clubs do not have the time it currently takes to trawl through no returns. If a mark was put against a player's handicap, that would at least help educate them. It would certainly help educate the 19 members who have no returned at my old club in the last 3 weeks.

 

[wjemather]

I bet a lot of it would help. A lot of Committee members at clubs do not have the time it currently takes to trawl through no returns. If a mark was put against a player's handicap, that would at least help educate them. It would certainly help educate the 19 members who have no returned at my old club in the last 3 weeks.

I just don't buy the "not enough time" excuse at all. It only takes a few minutes to check the reports, fire off an email, wait for a response, chase if necessary, and process that response (or lack of response).

By comparison, we have just 3 unresolved "unsatisfied score intents" (GP) and unreturned competition scores from over 1800 rounds pre-registered in the past 8 weeks, of which just under 500 were GP rounds. One of those unsatisfied intents is an away score via MyEG that is awaiting marker verification; apparently they have the app but are clueless on how to use it.

 

[Swango1980]

I just don't buy the "not enough time" excuse at all. It only takes a few minutes to check the reports, fire off an email, wait for a response, chase if necessary, and process that response (or lack of response).

By comparison, we have just 3 unresolved "unsatisfied score intents" (GP) and unreturned competition scores from over 1800 rounds pre-registered in the past 8 weeks, of which just under 500 were GP rounds. One of those unsatisfied intents is an away score via MyEG that is awaiting marker verification; apparently they have the app but are clueless on how to use it.

You seem to completely dismiss the experience of myself and 2blue (who have a team of 5) above, as if our experiences mean nothing. I was simply putting forward my thoughts on things that would have helped my administer handicaps. It is also clear that my new club is also having serious issues keeping on top of general play rounds, and their resources are much much better than my old club.

Assuming one keeps on top of general play rounds weekly, it requires reviewing the no returns both on MyEG and Club V1 (if that is your ISV, no idea about others). There could be quite a few no returns, as there were at my old club. You then need to fire off those e-mails (you can make them as generic as possible, but I liked to make them somewhat individual, such as referencing sign in time and date, as this will help them trigger their memory). You then need to wait for the reply, which could take any time. Once you get the reply, you then need to decide the way forward. If you do not get a reply, it takes more time to start chasing the player, especially as they have no incentive to get back to you. All this really needs to be recorded as well, so that you have some sort of record when it comes to persistent offenders. Otherwise you can only do this by memory.

Different clubs will have different experiences. Some may be well established proper clubs, where members heavily invest in their golf and happy to strictly follow club guidelines. The Committees themselves may have members who have time to regularly check general play cards, and start chasing no returns. Other clubs may have members who invest little in golf (my old club was very cheap membership), couldn't care either way about educating themselves about the rules of handicapping (many barely know the most basic rules of golf) and have Committee members who have full time jobs, and can think of nothing worse about getting home and start trawling through yet another batch of no returns and chasing players who couldn't really care less.

So, my above suggestions were simply things that, from my experience, would be useful. A players handicap does not necessarily need to be suspended after one no return, maybe just a mark against it. But, if there are several no returns than an automatic suspension until it is resolved would not hurt. If anything, it will encourage the player to contact the handicap sec to ask to resolve the issue. The handicap sec could clear the handicap if they felt it appropriate, or request what happened to the scores, and whether there was a valid reason for them. In other words, let the players themselves do some chasing when they fail to return a score, rather than some poor sod on the handicap committee having to do the chasing.

 

[wjemather]

You seem to completely dismiss the experience of myself and 2blue (who have a team of 5) above, as if our experiences mean nothing. I was simply putting forward my thoughts on things that would have helped my administer handicaps. It is also clear that my new club is also having serious issues keeping on top of general play rounds, and their resources are much much better than my old club.

Assuming one keeps on top of general play rounds weekly, it requires reviewing the no returns both on MyEG and Club V1 (if that is your ISV, no idea about others). There could be quite a few no returns, as there were at my old club. You then need to fire off those e-mails (you can make them as generic as possible, but I liked to make them somewhat individual, such as referencing sign in time and date, as this will help them trigger their memory). You then need to wait for the reply, which could take any time. Once you get the reply, you then need to decide the way forward. If you do not get a reply, it takes more time to start chasing the player, especially as they have no incentive to get back to you. All this really needs to be recorded as well, so that you have some sort of record when it comes to persistent offenders. Otherwise you can only do this by memory.

Different clubs will have different experiences. Some may be well established proper clubs, where members heavily invest in their golf and happy to strictly follow club guidelines. The Committees themselves may have members who have time to regularly check general play cards, and start chasing no returns. Other clubs may have members who invest little in golf (my old club was very cheap membership), couldn't care either way about educating themselves about the rules of handicapping (many barely know the most basic rules of golf) and have Committee members who have full time jobs, and can think of nothing worse about getting home and start trawling through yet another batch of no returns and chasing players who couldn't really care less.

So, my above suggestions were simply things that, from my experience, would be useful. A players handicap does not necessarily need to be suspended after one no return, maybe just a mark against it. But, if there are several no returns than an automatic suspension until it is resolved would not hurt. If anything, it will encourage the player to contact the handicap sec to ask to resolve the issue. The handicap sec could clear the handicap if they felt it appropriate, or request what happened to the scores, and whether there was a valid reason for them. In other words, let the players themselves do some chasing when they fail to return a score, rather than some poor sod on the handicap committee having to do the chasing.

I am aware of the issues at your new club, which unfortunately are not uncommon, but they are almost entirely down to how administration of handicaps is being done by staff who have not sought to educate themselves properly, probably because they are not invested in it. Consequent to the lack of knowledge of those administering the system, is lack of (or worse, incorrect) education of the membership.

Successful education of the membership reduces most of these tedious admin tasks to an absolute minimum. There are many channels available to get the message across, but (judging by what has happened local to me) many clubs have done almost nothing other than a one-time upload of stuff onto their website and then rely on members actively seeking the information out.

I find it surprising that you would suggest automatic suspensions of handicap (which would not be in accordance with the ROH) having rightly criticised ScotGolf for their automatic application of high Penalty Scores.

 

[jim8flog]

Your handicap committee should be monitoring unreturned scores through the WHS Platform, where there is a report titled "unsatisfied score intents". Through this report, the individual registrations can be selected to show any further details, e.g. awaiting score input, awaiting marker verification, etc. (it's obvious which intents are through MyEG as this detail isn't available for ISV registrations) The committee should then follow up with the player.

Thanks for the reply .

We are just about to instigate a follow up process for all GP errors not just EG ones

 

[Swango1980]

I am aware of the issues at your new club, which unfortunately are not uncommon, but they are almost entirely down to how administration of handicaps is being done by staff who have not sought to educate themselves properly, probably because they are not invested in it. Consequent to the lack of knowledge of those administering the system, is lack of (or worse, incorrect) education of the membership.

Successful education of the membership reduces most of these tedious admin tasks to an absolute minimum. There are many channels available to get the message across, but (judging by what has happened local to me) many clubs have done almost nothing other than a one-time upload of stuff onto their website and then rely on members actively seeking the information out.

I find it surprising that you would suggest automatic suspensions of handicap (which would not be in accordance with the ROH) having rightly criticised ScotGolf for their automatic application of high Penalty Scores.

And there lies the problem. One cannot assume all club committees have the expertise / education / time / will to enforce the various aspects of WHS. Therefore, I see no issues in finding ways to develop the technology to give us as much of a helping hand as possible. They did it under CONGU, for example running a report to help highlight players who may require adjustment at annual review. I think Committees will need more help than ever, now that scores can come flooding in outside competitions, before these can ever be verified by a committee member. Inevitably, there will always be no returns, and there will always be those not pre-registering properly if they can get away with it.

As said, I'm not talking about instant suspension of handicap for a no return, but just something that will help ensure players adhere to their responsibilities. If a player has not returned several scores, then I can see clubs actively looking to suspend players after warnings not to do so. The handicap does not even need to be suspended, but maybe a symbol next the their handicap that indicates they have NRs on their record, and comp secs can choose to decide if this is acceptable criteria when these players enter comps. If there are valid reasons, the handicap sec can simply wipe these clean. The reason I was critical of SG is that it automatically gave a penalty score which did not follow the guidance in most cases of NR.

PS. I wonder how EG will monitor / deal with No Returns through the igolf scheme?

 

[2blue]

I am aware of the issues at your new club, which unfortunately are not uncommon, but they are almost entirely down to how administration of handicaps is being done by staff who have not sought to educate themselves properly, probably because they are not invested in it. Consequent to the lack of knowledge of those administering the system, is lack of (or worse, incorrect) education of the membership.

Successful education of the membership reduces most of these tedious admin tasks to an absolute minimum. There are many channels available to get the message across, but (judging by what has happened local to me) many clubs have done almost nothing other than a one-time upload of stuff onto their website and then rely on members actively seeking the information out.

I find it surprising that you would suggest automatic suspensions of handicap (which would not be in accordance with the ROH) having rightly criticised ScotGolf for their automatic application of high Penalty Scores.

Hahaha... @Swango1980 I was highlighting this even before I saw you had..... hahaha.
As a Club & a team we are... way... way ... ahead of nearly all Clubs & Admin staff in our area & transmitting the message at every opportunity & in every way imaginable. Still not easy & any other support for any other area would help get the message across.
All of our teams are unpaid volunteers, not Private Club Staff receiving allowances or salary....... but that is the job it's become.

 

[Old Skier]

I’m a volunteer, run the report just a couple of times a week, no real issues. Most of the early reports showed those that used the ISV or EG app and didn’t have an idea how to use it and many of the others recently are from those that registered to use the app and then handed cards in for manual entry.

Regular communication and education has reduced our issues down to one or two issues a week.