Do high handicappers get a raw deal...

[Slab]

Simply put, a maximum allowance of 18 shots. One extra shot per hole should be enough to be considered competitive. I (and could very well be on my own here!) just dont see how a 28 handicapper can be seen as competitive when they are allowed so many shots, the current limit is 28, the same argument could be why is it 28 and not say, 50? I would just like to see the limit lowered some more, in my opinion it would make the sport more competitive and inspire more high handicappers to seek out coaching and improve.

At the risk of taking this off topic a little I'd disagree with the bold. It would create an imbalance and less competitive format surely as you're adding a bigger advantage to lower handicap golfers when, in effect removing an entire tier of golfers from playing competitively

The second part about being inspired is kind of insulting (I know that's not what you meant) & not how I'd view it as a 24 handicap. I'd say you're creating an elitist competition entry list looking down at me and assuming that it's a lack inspiration (or laziness/disinterest etc) that's leading me not to seek out coaching and that its the primary reason for my current h/cap! (i'll put my playing/practicing time up against many on here for comparison)

But do you really want a handicap system where the maximum range of playing ability permitted is one shot per hole... Think about it, an actual 24 ability playing against a scratch golfer and you expect just one extra putt or one duffed chip or one errant drive, just one shot with too much fade, one topped shot, one drive below 180 yards, one penalty stroke, one chip out, one shot in light rough, any one of these, to be the maximum difference between the two when playing any given golf hole in order to be fair for the scratch golfer in your mind! Not to mention any difference between the two in course management, club selection and shot selection

Just take any hole at your course in your mind and mentally play it as a scratch golfer would typically play it, (so that'll be FIR, GIR with expected two putts max) then do the same but imagine you're one of the 24 handicap guys you've seen with all the poor shots I've listed (remember below standard is typical for 24 not the exception)

If you do it honestly I dare you to tell me they finished the hole anywhere near one shot of each other unless they 24 is having a red letter hole or the scratch is having a blow-up

That scratch golfer may not want to play with me as a 24 ability hacker but that's not a reason for me to give him 6 shots surely?

 

[Beezerk]

I'm always open to advice from good players, who wouldn't want a free lesson after all :thup:
Seriously though golf snobbery goes off at my club as well, seems to be worse with the young ones but some of the older "low handicappers" are just as ignorant.
My PP and I get the old vacant stare quite often while out for a knock.

 

[Hacker Khan]

At the risk of taking this off topic a little I'd disagree with the bold. It would create an imbalance and less competitive format surely as you're adding a bigger advantage to lower handicap golfers when, in effect removing an entire tier of golfers from playing competitively

The second part about being inspired is kind of insulting (I know that's not what you meant) & not how I'd view it as a 24 handicap. I'd say you're creating an elitist competition entry list looking down at me and assuming that it's a lack inspiration (or laziness/disinterest etc) that's leading me not to seek out coaching and that its the primary reason for my current h/cap! (i'll put my playing/practicing time up against many on here for comparison)

But do you really want a handicap system where the maximum range of playing ability permitted is one shot per hole... Think about it, an actual 24 ability playing against a scratch golfer and you expect just one extra putt or one duffed chip or one errant drive, just one shot with too much fade, one topped shot, one drive below 180 yards, one penalty stroke, one chip out, one shot in light rough, any one of these, to be the maximum difference between the two when playing any given golf hole in order to be fair for the scratch golfer in your mind! Not to mention any difference between the two in course management, club selection and shot selection

Just take any hole at your course in your mind and mentally play it as a scratch golfer would typically play it, (so that'll be FIR, GIR with expected two putts max) then do the same but imagine you're one of the 24 handicap guys you've seen with all the poor shots I've listed (remember below standard is typical for 24 not the exception)

If you do it honestly I dare you to tell me they finished the hole anywhere near one shot of each other unless they 24 is having a red letter hole or the scratch is having a blow-up

That scratch golfer may not want to play with me as a 24 ability hacker but that's not a reason for me to give him 6 shots surely?

From a fellow high handicapper that's a fine post sir.

I have lessons, read mags, go down the range and kind of know what I should be doing. It's just that for whatever reason I struggle putting it into practice. I've heard various theories like I play golf left handed but I am so right sided in everything else I do, I play a lot of badminton which is all about flicking your wrists all the time, something you can't do at golf. Or the simple fact may well be that I am destined never to be that good at golf as my body just not naturally want to get into the right positions.

Who knows, but it is not through desire or lack of inspiration.

 

[brendy]

At the risk of taking this off topic a little I'd disagree with the bold. It would create an imbalance and less competitive format surely as you're adding a bigger advantage to lower handicap golfers when, in effect removing an entire tier of golfers from playing competitively

The second part about being inspired is kind of insulting (I know that's not what you meant) & not how I'd view it as a 24 handicap. I'd say you're creating an elitist competition entry list looking down at me and assuming that it's a lack inspiration (or laziness/disinterest etc) that's leading me not to seek out coaching and that its the primary reason for my current h/cap! (i'll put my playing/practicing time up against many on here for comparison)

But do you really want a handicap system where the maximum range of playing ability permitted is one shot per hole... Think about it, an actual 24 ability playing against a scratch golfer and you expect just one extra putt or one duffed chip or one errant drive, just one shot with too much fade, one topped shot, one drive below 180 yards, one penalty stroke, one chip out, one shot in light rough, any one of these, to be the maximum difference between the two when playing any given golf hole in order to be fair for the scratch golfer in your mind! Not to mention any difference between the two in course management, club selection and shot selection

Just take any hole at your course in your mind and mentally play it as a scratch golfer would typically play it, (so that'll be FIR, GIR with expected two putts max) then do the same but imagine you're one of the 24 handicap guys you've seen with all the poor shots I've listed (remember below standard is typical for 24 not the exception)

If you do it honestly I dare you to tell me they finished the hole anywhere near one shot of each other unless they 24 is having a red letter hole or the scratch is having a blow-up

That scratch golfer may not want to play with me as a 24 ability hacker but that's not a reason for me to give him 6 shots surely?

Entirely fair comments slab. My post wasn't made to come across as condescending/patronising etc. As I said, to reduce to 18, why not extend to 50?
Either way, the game would be more competitive as a. You have a tighter dispersion of scoring or b. Realistic handicaps for those who can't make it round in 28 over.
Our fourball consists of a 8,9,12 and 20 handicapper. The high man hits it as far as the low man, occasionally duff the odd drive granted. Where he loses his shots is in his 1 dimensional short game.Given the correct advice and course management, he really should be down in the low teens. I think this is true of quite a lot of experienced higher handicap players. Practicing the right things would make an immense difference. I rarely if ever see a high man practicing on our grounds. Always the cat1 and 2 guys. I can only speak about the thousand members at my club so only a small sample but offer this as my reasoning. The higher guys tend to not practice what they sometimes preach.

 

[Slab]

Entirely fair comments slab. My post wasn't made to come across as condescending/patronising etc. As I said, to reduce to 18, why not extend to 50?
Either way, the game would be more competitive as a. You have a tighter dispersion of scoring or b. Realistic handicaps for those who can't make it round in 28 over.
Our fourball consists of a 8,9,12 and 20 handicapper. The high man hits it as far as the low man, occasionally duff the odd drive granted. Where he loses his shots is in his 1 dimensional short game.Given the correct advice and course management, he really should be down in the low teens. I think this is true of quite a lot of experienced higher handicap players. Practicing the right things would make an immense difference. I rarely if ever see a high man practicing on our grounds. Always the cat1 and 2 guys. I can only speak about the thousand members at my club so only a small sample but offer this as my reasoning. The higher guys tend to not practice what they sometimes preach.

I get that and can see how your regular PP's fit into that model but with the average golfer playing off 16-20 (depending which website you visit) then a maximum shot a hole is under-cooking things

Scratch and max xyz comps already exist and maybe there should be more club golf like this to give that tighter dispersion but I fear there just isn't the volume of players to take advantage of it or make it viable because in truth it really cant be fun for cat 1 & 2 players to consistently play against players at my level and I guess the opens etc only help to a degree

I'd say your 20 mate isn't typical in having one primary area dictating his high handicap (i.e in the same way that there's very few 18 handicappers who play off 18 because they three putt most greens) so I can see why using this guys profile would suggest 18 max and a bit of practice on his part and he'll get there no worries. Like most I can only wish I just had one area to work on

For me I rarely see our cat 1's at the range, they are exceptional guys who've been doing it consistently well for a long time. I'm much more likely to see high teens & 20+ at the range trying to figure out consistency of one aspect or another

I will get to 18 one day but that's roundabout where I'll max out

Anyway I don't want to get too far away from the advice aspect of the thread but knowing the fundamentals as I do I can see issues in others who are lower but wouldn't advise them about it simply because I know they would rightly say 'well why haven't you sorted your own issues out'

 

[Spear-Chucker]

I rarely ask for advice but would listen to anyone who replied to me as a matter of courtesy. This would be regardless of handicap. I may well accept or ignore it in the long term but that's my choice. I've effectively built my swing myself from books and online teaching and work on it myself, accordingly. I think it's interesting that someone long established in the game would not ask someone new about an issue as 'beginners' often have good advice on the basics because that's what they are working on! Getting the basics right can help eradicate many poor shots from my experience.

I hate being asked for advice because I don't have a clue how to teach the game and am not qualified to interfere; I am not a surgeon either and wouldn't dream of opening my trap on this subject either. A friend asked me at the weekend about his shots going left and whilst I could easily describe what was going on I felt the fear of God thinking about what he should do to stop it

 

[londonlewis]

Good question.
For me it isn't to do with the handicap of the person offering advice, it depends on how good I think the advice is.

I also don't believe that a player with a higher handicap than mine is worse at all aspects of the game. Therefore, if someone can help me improve, I'll be open to listening.

I think it also depends on when advice is offered and whether it is unsolicited. I'd be quite closed if someone on the range offered me advice after I had hit one shot.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I don't offer or accept unsolicited advice from club golfers.

I don't ask for swing advice from club golfers

If asked for advice I say things like "you are pushing/thinning/pulling/fatting/hooking or slicing[delete as appropriate] - I'd see a pro if I were you"

 

[garyinderry]

Extract from Peter alias, my life.


My father, he never gave me many lessons. We'd talk about the game from time to time, particularly if I was having a problem.he'd select a member of the club, irrespective of handicp, and say, you know Mr so and so, now he is a very good chipper with a little 7iron from just off the green. You watch him and then come and tell me what he does. Try to copy him. Learn, use your own brains. If you don't, when you come under pressure, you will collapse and your mind will go out of gear and you will fail. Wise words!


I read this today and couldn't agree more. Every time I play with someone new, I study how they chip, pitch and putt. If I can gleam anything from it I will. I find it fascinating how many people can do the same thing in so many different ways. Good and bad.

Every day is a school day!

 

[Hobbit]

I have had good advice from high handicappers AND low handicappers. But I've had more bad advice from high handicappers, and more good advice from low handicappers. Who am I, naturally, going to be more at ease listening to? And that doesn't mean I won't listen.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Re the OP - High Handicapper Raw Deal sort of question is usually when handicap difference is 3/4. But on this...advice being dismissed seems to be the complaint.

I'll always listen to what anyone says in the way of advice. In fact one of the most important pieces of advice I have accepted over recent years came after playing with a lady member just out of academy who knew diddly squat about golf and was off 36. She reckoned I hadn't putted very well - though for me it hadn't been too bad - and told me I should develop a putting routine that included 3 practice swings - not two - three. So I did - and it works fantastic. Nuff said I guess.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

How many articles, giving advice, are written by none qualified people? It's generally pro's who give golf swing/technique advice, not journalists.

Pretty much all of them in the Ask the 'Experts' thread!!