Dilema

[USER1999]

But assuming most 4 balls average similar h/caps, they will be looking for a similar number of balls, and it will average out. You might lose touch for a hole, but you will get it back. Most courses stack up on the first par 3, and when you finish it, the group in front are vamoosed. Within a hole, they are there again.

Most courses tee intervals reflect a 4 hour round. That is the norm. More than 4 hours is always going to be considered slow by most golfers.

Any way, my experience is that it isn't looking for balls that causes slow play, it is not being ready to play, and looking at putts from 15 different angles, and then leaving it 6ft short.

 

[JustOne]

Any way, my experience is that it isn't looking for balls that causes slow play, it is not being ready to play, and looking at putts from 15 different angles, and then leaving it 6ft short.

Again I disagree unless that happened on every hole... by all 4 players. If one guy is putting that badly then it could add up to an extra 30 seconds per hole, maybe. Could he really leave putts 6 foot short on all 18 holes? But if he goes on to make the 6 footer for a par or a win or a half or a point then is that a problem? If it's missed it's likely to be picked up after that I'd have thought?

 

[USER1999]

I play in a group of about 40 players on a Saturday morning. 4 of these are slow. Any 4 ball with one of these in it, will lose on average 2 holes on the group in front. If two of them get drawn together, you can bet they will lose 4 holes, minimum. It just adds up. No science, it just adds up. Based on 30 years of watching slow players, that is the way I see it. Time isn't wasted looking for balls, and mostly not by walking slowly, it is wasted by not even thinking about the forth coming shot til it is time to play. Then looking at line, lenght, terrain, wind, etc.

A guy I play with plumb bobs his driver on every tee. He is 73, has been a member for 40 years, knows the course like the back of his hand, what the flip is that about. If he doesn't know the fairway drops off to the right by now, he never will. Just hit the flippin thing.

 

[JustOne]

It's an interesting subject and one I have no problem discussing.

I had a caddie who was pulling my trolley for me and passing me my putter/driver/irons. I didn't have to worry about head covers, cleaning clubs, parking my trolley, moving it to the next tee, taking course planners in and out of my pocket, or even yardages as my excellent caddy was right there with the information. Maybe 10 seconds deciding what club it was and pull the trigger. I'm not a great one for practice swings. I'm surprised I wasn't the quickest person out there... maybe I was. You were there, were we standing around rolling fags and telling stories?

I'm not sure how many holes I didn't putt out on, if memory serves... 1st, 4th, 10th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th which was a knock up to the hole. 7 holes I didn't need to finish... so 11 putts cost us?.... an hour? more? How long do you reckon?

I'm finding it an interesting couple of threads, it's a shame they aren't combined to make it easier to follow. To be honest I don't even know what time it was when we teed off, or how long it took for the round. I figure that 4½ hours would be OK for a 4-ball matchplay that goes to the final putt on the final green on a course no one has played before, no?

 

[CrapHacker]

I hate playing too quickly. If I feel rushed it definately affects my game.

If I play too slowly, it doesn't upset me as long as I'm not holding anyone up.

Surely the more time spent on the course, the better. Unless there's something better or more important to do, that is.

 

[JustOne]

Why are you so desperate for it to be you who is the slow guy. Trust me if I thought it was me Smiffy was talking about, the last thing I would be doing is proclaiming myself as the guy who holds the golf course up.

Because I'm not really interested whether it's me or not so I'm happy to accept responsibility and argue the case for the better golfer.... I've never been on the side of the speedy guy who shoots 100 and is home two hours later posting golf advice on a forum.

However if the speedy guy was a couple under par.....

(note: we also didn't hold anyone up as there was no one behind us)

 

[Smiffy]

You were there, were we standing around rolling fags?

I don't understand what this constant reference to "rolling fags" has got to do with slow play?
I'll normally only ever roll one up when I know that I have got time to do so without holding everybody up, such as when I'm last off the tee. It takes a minute to roll one, and I've usually finished and lit up well before it's my turn to step up and hammer one 150 yards down the middle

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Hey JustOneUK, I don't know you, I don't know if this thread is talking about you and I don't even know if your a slow player but what a great repost

Slow play is clearly not acceptable, but there is slow play because you are trying to score your best, there is slow play because you wander around a golf course aimlessly forgetting that you are playing golf and there is slow play because you spend all your time in the rough looking for balls.

I have always been of the opinion that if you are slow because you are trying to make the best score you can, ie, as you said, working out if the hazards are in reach, then that is more acceptable that dalying around or looking for balls.

I too like to hit my ball and get to it as quick as possible to size up the next shot. I have a routine I go through, it's not a slow routine but it's a routine. If you have to go and spend 5 minutes looking for someone else's ball, why should you forego your routine or think any less about YOUR shot.

Same on the greens, I have a routine, it doesn't take long, but in competition I do it on every putt of more than 18 inches Most people I play with don't have a routine so it is longer than theirs. However, my theory is making one putt with my routine is quicker than having no routine and taking 2 putts.

So whether this post is about you or not, I agree with everything you have said.

 

[Smiffy]

So whether this post is about you or not, I agree with everything you have said.

OK Hawkeye, here's a question for you.

You are playing in a society day, last group out. You are behind my mate Normans group who are playing as a threeball, the only threeball in the field.
They have fallen behind all the other matches in front by a good 3 or 4 holes despite the fact that they SHOULD be quicker only playing as a three, but won't let you through.
Because of this, one of your group has to walk off the course early because he has to get home (he travelled a long way to the event and expected it to finish within a reasonable time).
How would you feel then?
It's just a hyperthetical question by the way

 

[HawkeyeMS]

As far as I'm concerned Smiffy, that's a different question. If you have fallen 3 or 4 holes behind you should play the group behind through - period.

The slow I'm talking about doesn't take so long you had fallen 3 or 4 holes behind. Falling 3 or 4 holes behind is just not acceptable under any circumstances. My response was in reply to JustOneUK and I don't believe what he does could cause your group to lose 3 or 4 holes, but I may be wrong

 

[JustOne]

I don't believe what he does could cause your group to lose 3 or 4 holes, but I may be wrong

I was about to say "thanks for your support", I'm reconsidering now

 

[JustOne]

Smiffy has his own issues with the game, it's not a problem for me as I like him a lot. When we play golf he's enigmatic, when he smiles you can't help but smile too. when you walk the fairways you want to walk along with him chatting and listening to his stories which are proper funny... overall he has a wicked sense of humour and is a proper funny bloke to spend some time with, generous to a fault - I didn't realise that he wants to drive an hour to my track, rush round in 3 hours without talking and then whizz off straight home. I thought it was about the friendship as much as the golf... I'll bear that in mind and constantly ask him "are we going quick enough?" between every shot and see how we get on with that

I have to admit I don't fancy driving 50 miles to his place, paying £25 quid to be rushed around without talking then get in my car and drive home unless it's in a competition playing with people I don't know. Yes the golf is important but if I don't want to enjoy myself with my friends then I'd stay at my own course and go round by myself at no cost.

 

[viscount17]

keeping up with the group ahead sounds very nice and looks good in print, until you are in the group behind the speedfreaks. I can't see how racing around can be good for anybodys game.
if a gap develops let someone through by all means but don't ruin your game to fill it.

 

[jammydodger]

Why dont you open a thread called 'FAO JustOneUK' and just tell him straight

Hey no worries, I'm in a good mood, I just wrote an almighty reply and it didn't post properly so now I have to write it again... fortunately it'll probably be more mellow than the first one....

Firstly. All the courses we have played recently have been courses I've never seen in my life and on occasions the games have been relatively important.

I don't know how far it is to the trees on the right or the ditch on the left. If you hit your driver and get close then I know it's a soft 5 wood for me. I could walk onto the tee on every hole with a driver like you do because you can't reach the trouble... and then go put it away again. 380yd holes doesn't mean driver for all of us.

When you tee off you are playing to what you can see, all you need to worry about is the 50yds of rough in front of the tee box. I need to know what IS over that slope that is 250yds away or those trees on the right are they 250 or 280 yds away. My swing thoughts aren't "I hope I get this past the ladies tee".

If I am going for a par5 in 2 shots (not something you'd need to worry about) then I need to know where the best place is to be on the fairway, can I carry that bunker, is that lake on the left reachable... not whether I might make it there in 3 if I knobble a couple of hybrids 140yds each.

Secondly. After hitting my shot I'm happy to head off at a million miles per hour towards my ball, size up my next shot and wait to hit it... but I have to walk at the pace of your power trolley and hang back for you to hit your next shot, isn't it rude to walk in front of the slower guy?

Sometimes I have to head over to the rough to help you find your ball as I'm the one who saw where it went and will probably be the person who finds it. After you find it and knobble it 100yds I still have to get to my ball and size up what is in front of me on the course I don't know.
I'm happy not to look for your ball and head straight over to mine, I can then think about my next shot for 5 whole minutes whilst you look for your ball and read the course planner for the holes ahead if you prefer... we don't need to chat either.

When I play courses that I have played before I generally know which club i'm going to hit and what is where.... when we played the Addington on the first round I walked up the slope on the Par5 second hole to see where the green was, on the second round I didn't need to and promptly hit a 3-wood to 10 feet setting up an eagle.

If we only played the one round then I guess I would be classed as a time waster as I only made birdie the first time (and only a flippin' birdie the second time - stupid soggy greens!). You didn't need to go look over the slope as your hybrid doesn't go that far and you were more likely to have picked up than reached the green in two.

At Copthorne on the 14th if you go more than 6 feet off the back you are going to bogey the hole or lose your ball in the prickles.. I don't have that many shots to play with so I need to know what the best shot to hit is, and the best place to try and leave the ball - even if the shot doesn't come off. At Copthorne I have no problem zipping round in a couple of hours, I know the course well. The par5 8th is driver, 9-iron if you land just left of the tree to the right and get the run, the par5 13th is driver, 6-iron if you can get to the big oak tree on the left... I don't know what it is for 3 hybrids.

Thirdly.... actually I'm not going to write a thirdly, there's not a lot of need. All I can say is that when we play Hever on Sunday in our practice round for the Open I'm happy to let you guys tee off first and I'll follow along behind. I have never played that course either and actually want to play to WIN the event in May. Making a putt for double bogey and a point isn't really my cuppa tea, I'd rather look at the course planner and wonder if that ditch 320yds away is in range if my ball makes it to the downslope.

James

My compliments to your patience and willingness to write this post.

Without doubt I thought this was one of the best posts I have ever seen on this forum. Many salilent points on the difference in thinking between players of different standards/length/handicap

One other point to remember also is that on quite a few tees longer hitters have to wait considerably longer for the fairway ahead to clear before they can tee off , sometimes waiting for players to hit 2nd and even 3rd shots

 

[JustOne]

Thanks Jammy, I appreciate your sentiment.

 

[Smiffy]

One other point to remember also is that on quite a few tees longer hitters have to wait considerably longer for the fairway ahead to clear before they can tee off , sometimes waiting for players to hit 2nd and even 3rd shots

A very valid point, and one that I understand and take on board.
But what if the fairway in front of them is completely empty. And the one in front of that. And the one in front of that? I.E. You have fallen three (or more) holes behind?
Contrary to what James is suggesting, I am not advocating running around the golf course in three hours, far from it. But I suppose I feel "guilty" (if guilty is the correct word), when I have dropped so far back from the group in front whether I am being pushed from behind or not. Especially more so when pre-arranged food, or a "prizegiving" is on the cards after the round and I am aware that I will be holding other people up who have finished their rounds and are waiting in the clubhouse. Is that such a crime?
My main reason for the original post was this fact...falling so far back from the groups in front, not slow play per se. If I am right up the chuffer of the group in front, then I can accept that there is nothing I can do. I put up with it. But when you see the group in front on the first tee and then don't clap eyes on them again for the rest of the round? Not even if you can see three or four holes ahead..... it's telling me that something's "wrong". That is the only point I was trying to make.

 

[Robobum]

Smiffy, not sure whether you are aware but up the top at The Addington a couple of the holes get very close to the course next door, Addington Palace. Have you checked that they didn't play the front nine round there as well by accident??

 

[Smiffy]

Smiffy, not sure whether you are aware but up the top at The Addington a couple of the holes get very close to the course next door, Addington Palace. Have you checked that they didn't play the front nine round there as well by accident??

Stirrer

 

[jammydodger]

Its always a contentious subject slow play and one we always seem to be debating on these forums. People have different comfort zones. My comfort zone is a 3 hour round for a 3-ball , to me that seems reasonable , to others 4 hours is ok. But at the very least you shouldnt fall more than a hole back if you've been in a little trouble and then you should make efforts to make that gap back up asap

 

[CrapHacker]

Its always a contentious subject slow play and one we always seem to be debating on these forums. People have different comfort zones. My comfort zone is a 3 hour round for a 3-ball , to me that seems reasonable , to others 4 hours is ok. But at the very least you shouldnt fall more than a hole back if you've been in a little trouble and then you should make efforts to make that gap back up asap

Interesting this.

Coz I'm quite a slow player, naturally. If I've not got any other appointment I'm quite happy playing a 3 - 4 hour two ball.

Yet, I don't know about you, but I definately didn't feel we were racing around WH.

Or on the other hand, did you feel you were trudging round with a load of slow old farts?